Disgusting

Daseal: Pat Tillman was killed in Afghanistan. I believe that is certainly relevant to 9/11.

Also, while I'm in complete agreement about freedom of the press and freedom of speech and conscience, I feel it is the responsibility of those who disagree with the student at Amhearst to speak out against those views. That's how a free society works. If you say something I disagree with, I don't silence you; I respond in kind. And for the record, I don't think people are "entitled" to hold false views. You are not entitled to believe that 2+2=5.

So, is this student's view false? Well, Tillman had every oportunity NOT to serve his country. He gave up a lucrative job that I am sure provided all the macho thrills he needed. Further, his fame and fortune in the NFL are the dream of macho, jock Rambo-types all over the country. And instead he gave that up, and then gave the ultimate sacrifice for his country. While one may well disagree with the policies of our government, TIllman simply was a soldier who did what was ordered of him.

As for the word "hero," we hear it constantly in sports. For once, the term may be applied correctly to an athlete. And, for the record, I am quite sure that if Tillman were here to day, he would reject the label. My impression is that he just wanted to do his part. We need soldiers to protect us in a world where fanatics are willing to fly planes into buildings. And soldiering is a nasty, difficult, incredibly dangerous job. Tillman volunteered for it, despite his success in the NFL. From my perspective, that's heroic.

Daseal - Tillman was killed in Afghanistan (who was harboring al-qaeda and would be still if we hadn't gone in there). He was in Iraq for a while, but was ambushed in and subsequently killed in Afghanistan. If you think that going into Afghanistan was not justified, then you obviously don't know the facts.

Way to use one stereotype to condemn another:
"Or is it going back to after 9/11 when the rednecks beat up anyone who looked as if they were from the middle east."

"The Cardinals said they will retire Tillman's No. 40 and name the plaza surrounding the new stadium under construction in suburban Glendale the "Pat Tillman Freedom Plaza." "

The Cardinals just earned a little respect, in my book.

I am more concerned at this guys obsession with Rambo. Was he unable to deal with the subject matter and thus scarred by it psychologically? Has he got an inferiority complex due to being a 98lb weakling? It's a strange kind of rant, very immature, he's got some deep seated problems that will require the help of a therapist.

I still would like to beat the snot out of him though. Not because he looks a certain way, but because he's obnoxious.

Daseal -

I agree and disagree with you. As to the kid having a right to say what he wants about Tillman. Yup. He does. I don't have to respect it, but he can say it. From what I read of the article, I happen to agree with the president of the college who described the article as "intellectually immature".

As to heroism, you make the mistake of tying heroism to a heroic death. While it is likely true that Tillman died just as many other soldiers have died in the line of duty, it is not the actual events of his death that make him heroic. Rather, it is the choices he made in life and which eventually resulted in his death that made him heroic.

Everyone, whether they do so knowingly or with some alterior motives, who joins the armed forces has made, on some level, certain choices and sacrifices and, accordingly, is in the same way "heroic" as Tillman was. In an extreme way, however, Tillman reflected the choices and sacrifices faced by all who don the uniform of our military and place their lives in our service.

Unlike the vast majority of those who have died, Tilman bypassed a life of ease and false hero-worship given to entertainers. Tillman sacrificed the luxuries given to such individuals and chose to place his life at the disposal of his country in hopes that, by doing so, he would better serve his fellow countrymen/women. By making this choice, Tillman exhibited a selflessness which, if practiced by all of us, would make our country and this world a better place. Further, the he choice made, though easy for Tillman, is incomprehensible to many of us. Can you honestly say you would sacrifice the 3.6 million and fame commensurate with being professional football player in order to serve your country in a life threatening job for low pay and relative anonymity (even if you believed the cause just)? While I would like to honestly answer "Yes". I am not sure I can.

The fact that Tillman could and did answer "yes" to this question and then followed his answer through to it its deadly end is what makes him heroic and his death tragic.
He is a hero because his choices and sacrifices set an ideal which all of us can and should strive to emulate even if we cannot hope to duplicate it.

You're both totally correct. It was Afghanistan, I forgot. Yes, they do have many ties to 9/11. So him being there is justified. Chances are if we weren't in Iraq he would be somewhere different though, but that's too much guessing.
"Or is it going back to after 9/11 when the rednecks beat up anyone who looked as if they were from the middle east."
Cpayne - This is very true. I didn't say every redneck, but I heard of multiple instances of even children being afraid to go to school because their family is as ignorant as they come. Suddenly because a few fanatics do something that most Muslims think is absolutly abominable all Muslims are demonfied. That's like saying all American's are fanatic Christians like we have running the White House. It simply isn't true. There were quite a few examples of people from the middle east being both physically and psycologically worn down after 9/11. I must say I'm a bit sad that you seem to support this.

When the word is used in Sports, they normally say "sports hero" which is different from a real hero. Don't get me wrong, I think the Tillman had a noble cause, but I can also see the other side of the fence.

I retract my statement about not being there. That pertains to Iraq, not Afghanistan.

It would take my about 4 pages worth of essay to explain my stance on the above. It's not lack of love for my country, or the men and women in the service (which I have quite a few family and friends in) but the war is unnecessary. Pat Tillman should have never been killed, because he should have never been there.

obviously Tillman felt he should be there or else he wouldn't have volunteered to go serve his country. this isn't like vietnam where people, mostly kids, were drafted and didn't have a choice. anyone joining the military thinking they'll always be safe obviously don't understand what the job is about.
I do understand the need to have opposing view points expressed, but not to the point where someone is demeaning the choice's a person makes with their life. there was no need to be this direspectful of someone who thought he was doing the right thing to protect the freedoms of people like this putz of a "journalist."

I don't agree with him, but he's entitled to his opinion just like you are. Is Pat Tillman a hero? Maybe. What horribly heroic action did he take? Did he lay down his life for 20 of his other men? No. He joined the Rangers and had an unfortunate accident happen to him, I think it's a little overzealous to call him a hero. I feel heroes are people that really totally change the face of something. Pat Tillman didn't do that. He's a man who was famous, that just happened to die in combat. He's no more of a hero than anyone else who has died in Iraq. This whole "defending our Freedom" thing kind of makes me sick. He's not defending my freedom in Iraq. My freedom was never jeopardized by Saddam.

It would take my about 4 pages worth of essay to explain my stance on the above. It's not lack of love for my country, or the men and women in the service (which I have quite a few family and friends in) but the war is unnecessary. Pat Tillman should have never been killed, because he should have never been there.

The term "hero" get's tossed around like a rag-doll in times of war. Everyone suddenly becomes a hero. The armed forces do their jobs, and they do them well. However, I don't get entitled as a hero if there's an unfortunate accident and I die. I'm an idiot who got stuck in an industrial machine. I think a hero is the man who sacrifices himself for the rest of the platoon. A hero is someone who saves the lives of his fellow soldiers.

Please don't take this the wrong way. I'm just saying that Pat Tillman get's too much press and our society likes the word hero. Hero's are rare. Pat Tillman did a noble thing in turning down the money and fighting, although the kid has a valid point that it could be seen as stupid. There's a very thin line between brave and stupid.

In closing. Let the kid say how he feels. Or is it going back to after 9/11 when the rednecks beat up anyone who looked as if they were from the middle east. Or people beating other people up for not standing up during "America the beautiful" (which holds no disrespect.) It's simply form of opinion, and Pat Tillman knew what chances he was taking heading into battle. He's no less a hero than the 10 who died via carbomb today.

Here's a novel idea. Let's get the fuck out of there and we won't have any more "heroes." That's fine by me. I'd rather be heroless and still have families with loved ones intact.

Daseal, you really have to stay off politic's until you you learn to think properly, your industrial machine anology is ridiculous, you equate what tillman did to essentially falling off a ladder, you might wan't to think about putting it in these term's, if someone get's killed because he was stuck in an industrial machine as you put it, for no reason other than his own stupidity than no he's not really a hero, although the only reason he might have been in that position is because he had to put his life at risk to care for his family, or as well he could have been killed in a machine saving the life of another co-worker and doing so gave his own life, your a FOOL if you think for 1 second Iraq or Afganastan have nothing to do with our freedom, of saftey! Tell me Daseal would you be in favor of bombing afganastan if we uncovered the plot to take down the WTC before it happened? and wiping out bin laden and his ilk before they struck? I doubt it! yet they were no more a threat to us than Iraq was, unless you wan't to count the first time he bombed the WTC, or when he bombed the USS cole, then a man comes along and throw's away everything to fight for his country, and to put his life on the line to see that american's don't die like they did in the WTC again, and you say the word hero is used losely and he doesn't deserve hero status? I really don't know where your head is at, GREATER LOVE HAS NO MAN THAT HE GIVE UP HIS LIFE FOR HIS FRIEND'S!

AMERICA! LOVE IT, OR GET OUT!!!!!!!!!!!

I have no problem with free speech because thats what this country is all about and we fight for that. The one thing I totally can not accept is when your start to cross a very thin line. This kid definetly crossed the line. There is a certain way to criticize and there is a stupid way. By calling someone an idiot because they went to protect your freedom is the stupid way.

I don't agree with him, but he's entitled to his opinion just like you are. Is Pat Tillman a hero? Maybe. What horribly heroic action did he take? Did he lay down his life for 20 of his other men?He may not have saved 20 other men, but the fact that he was there and he was in the position to save 20 men while you and I are home sitting on our asses makes him a hero.

And yes, this college punk has the right to print whatever he likes... but he must live with the consequences. I can promise you someone will find him and kick the crap out of him, repeatedly. Whether it's physically, or in a job interview... whatever. People don't forget that kinda stuff.