Learning Under Vets? Coaching Up?

I imagine a lot depends on the personality of the veteran and the rookie. Some vets probably don't have the time of day for guys that may or may not be there teammate or who is trying to take their or their buddy's job. Some rookies may not even approach the vets and just be trying to learn on their own by listening to the coaches.

On the other hand, if a the vet is a good guy who isn't feeling particularly threatened (or is a REALLY good guy and just wants what's best for the team) AND the rookie is busting his ass and being respectful, THEN the vet just may give him some advice on the field - the old "watch his knuckles" kinda advice. I bet most vets are to intent on their own jobs to do much more than that except in rare occasions.

This is a good question for which I have brought up and contemplated myself. I have come to believe it's both coaching and vetrans that get the job done. I keep telling myself that it's the position coach's job (as in Hixon) to teach/develope, but I think it's probably more his job to teach fundamentals for which I get blasted about how players should already have the fundamentals or they would not have made it to the pros. I believe this to be a false statement. A prime example would be Robert Hensons interview where he keeps stating the TE coach is teaching him fundamentals all the time which he did not get in college. I also see the older vets a lot of the time coaching the younger players on the side lines after a play went sour on their route running or how to shed the blocker or how to lose the defensive player.

So I have come to believe it's a two part system but I am still concerned with our WR coach and the lack of developement. If all the team brings in is lemons then you make lemon juice. It seems the team brings in players and they are cut come regular season and we have no one new. Last yr was a nice change but again who's job was it to get Thomas in shape and ready to play? Who's job was it to make sure he learned the plays and routes? ultimatly Thomas's but I would think the positions coach would have taken special interest in getting the player to learn the offense even if it meant quizing him everyday on plays.

Warren Sapp hit the nail on the head on this issue. This isn't just an NFL problem, it's everywhere.

Derrick Brooks, Warren Sapp, Vince Young in Monday Morning QB - Peter King - SI.com (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2009/writers/peter_king/06/21/brooks/index.html?eref=T1)

From the article:
"I'll tell you the real reason,'' his friend Warren Sapp (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/football/nfl/players/3140) said over the weekend. "Because it's not the same for the veterans anymore. The NFL doesn't need us. In this NFL, the old vets don't factor in. The kids don't listen to nobody. Nobody! My last year in Oakland, I'd try to talk to some of the kids. Tommy Kelly (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/football/nfl/players/7046), Terdell Sands (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/football/nfl/players/5691). But they had no interest. I thought the ghosts in that building were so valuable, but none of the young guys cared. Once in a while, one of the old legends would come in the building, or make a trip. Jack Tatum would be around, and I'd say, 'You know who that dude is? You know how he played?' And the kids would be like, 'Nah, I don't care.'
"The game's different now. Look at Vince Young (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/football/nfl/players/7752). Why wouldn't he listen to Kerry Collins (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/football/nfl/players/3115)? I'm sure Vince thinks, 'Nobody's been through what I'm going through. Nobody's been through my kind of pressure.' Are you kidding me! Kerry Collins, fifth pick in the draft, has all the ups and downs, gets benched, makes those racist comments, has the alcohol problems, moves from team to team, comes back, has success ... Vince Young should suck up all the knowledge Kerry Collins has to offer! There's no better role model for him.''

Warren Sapp hit the nail on the head on this issue. This isn't just an NFL problem, it's everywhere.

Derrick Brooks, Warren Sapp, Vince Young in Monday Morning QB - Peter King - SI.com (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2009/writers/peter_king/06/21/brooks/index.html?eref=T1)

From the article:
"I'll tell you the real reason,'' his friend Warren Sapp (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/football/nfl/players/3140) said over the weekend. "Because it's not the same for the veterans anymore. The NFL doesn't need us. In this NFL, the old vets don't factor in. The kids don't listen to nobody. Nobody! My last year in Oakland, I'd try to talk to some of the kids. Tommy Kelly (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/football/nfl/players/7046), Terdell Sands (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/football/nfl/players/5691). But they had no interest. I thought the ghosts in that building were so valuable, but none of the young guys cared. Once in a while, one of the old legends would come in the building, or make a trip. Jack Tatum would be around, and I'd say, 'You know who that dude is? You know how he played?' And the kids would be like, 'Nah, I don't care.'
"The game's different now. Look at Vince Young (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/football/nfl/players/7752). Why wouldn't he listen to Kerry Collins (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/football/nfl/players/3115)? I'm sure Vince thinks, 'Nobody's been through what I'm going through. Nobody's been through my kind of pressure.' Are you kidding me! Kerry Collins, fifth pick in the draft, has all the ups and downs, gets benched, makes those racist comments, has the alcohol problems, moves from team to team, comes back, has success ... Vince Young should suck up all the knowledge Kerry Collins has to offer! There's no better role model for him.''

Saap is right on the money. Young should be soaking up all the knowledge he can from Collins. Instead he cries to the media about wanting his job back and if he can't get it then trade me. Excuse my language... but what a ****ing baby!!!! Does Vince Young realize that he has ZERO value in the NFL as a starter??? His best chance to become a starter again is w/ Tenn. He needs to suck up his pride, live at the Tenn facility and learn how to play QB instead of talking about it. He's got the poster boy for someone that's turned around an NFL career sitting right in front of him and he doesn't try to take advantage of it. What a dumb ass.

Saap is right on the money. Young should be soaking up all the knowledge he can from Collins. Instead he cries to the media about wanting his job back and if he can't get it then trade me. Excuse my language... but what a ****ing baby!!!! Does Vince Young realize that he has ZERO value in the NFL as a starter??? His best chance to become a starter again is w/ Tenn. He needs to suck up his pride, live at the Tenn facility and learn how to play QB instead of talking about it. He's got the poster boy for someone that's turned around an NFL career sitting right in front of him and he doesn't try to take advantage of it. What a dumb ass.

Has Collins made himself available to Young? I think back to Tony Banks, I think it was him, who I remember once said one of his biggest regrets was the way he acted and treated other quarterbacks on the team, especially younger guys. He said he purposely distanced himself because he was so possessive about his job. But that he watched the way Dilfer handled himself on the team and wishes he had been more like him. Willing to teach and be a part of the team.

But anyway, nice thread. I think it's really about, as Paintrain mentioned, what veterans can teach rookies and younger players about life as an NFL player not so much how to play the game. I think veterans can definitely teach younger players a lot but they have to be willing, and the younger guys have to be willing to learn.

....I think it's probably more his job to teach fundamentals for which I get blasted about how players should already have the fundamentals or they would not have made it to the pros. I believe this to be a false statement......I agree with you, even at the DI college level some of the coaches aren't teaching good fundamentals. They're more worried about scheme (and some don't do that well) & recruiting. Plus the NFL is a different game from college anyway.

Has Collins made himself available to Young? Not that Peter King hasn't been wrong before, but King states in the article: "I have heard that Collins went out of his way last year to try to help Young when the struggling quarterback was having his quasi-breakdown. Young had no interest."

Not that Peter King hasn't been wrong before, but King states in the article: "I have heard that Collins went out of his way last year to try to help Young when the struggling quarterback was having his quasi-breakdown. Young had no interest."

Well then yeah, that's all on Young then.

Renaldo Wynn sort of addressed this issue in our chat with him a couple of years back.


WP: You’re often called a “locker room leader” And I know you like to take your teammates out to get to know them outside of football. Is this a role you naturally took upon yourself or, as a veteran, were you asked to fill this role?

RW: I just have a compassion for my teammates; I think this something natural that if they want me to find things out; I’ll do it. I want to see things through, see them be happy, especially the young guys that’s why this is my 6th year being a rep for my team, your teammates vote you, and they know that you have a moral conscious. I’ll do what’s right despite interests. Going to tell them what I feel is right and what’s in their best interest. You rep the players. Rep for the players and the rights of the player.

Well then yeah, that's all on Young then.

Renaldo Wynn sort of addressed this issue in our chat with him a couple of years back.


WP: You’re often called a “locker room leader” And I know you like to take your teammates out to get to know them outside of football. Is this a role you naturally took upon yourself or, as a veteran, were you asked to fill this role?

RW: I just have a compassion for my teammates; I think this something natural that if they want me to find things out; I’ll do it. I want to see things through, see them be happy, especially the young guys that’s why this is my 6th year being a rep for my team, your teammates vote you, and they know that you have a moral conscious. I’ll do what’s right despite interests. Going to tell them what I feel is right and what’s in their best interest. You rep the players. Rep for the players and the rights of the player.

The Reputable Wynn. LOL.

I would say there are multiple facets of veteran leadership - some more critical than others

1. How to live and act of the field - this is not critical and mostly on the kid to act in accordance w/ the rules

2. How to prepare and become a Professional this is more critical and falls hand and glove w/ #1; if the kid is preparing he will have less time to find trouble

Both 1 and 2 fall into the overated category for me. As stated in this thread, at some point the kid has to step up and make the commitment to the NFL over the glamour that goes with it.

3. How to play like a champion when things look bad in a game. This is where a good veteran can be critical. I would say London Fletcher and chris Cooley fall into this category - high standards and ability to make plays when it matters forces the rest of the team play better. I chose Fletcher / Cooley over Ray Lewis / Tom Brady types to focus on their leadership on the field over the power of their pure talent, however, I think both Brady and Lewis have alot of field leadership as well.

My 2c