The first debate

By the way... My political idealogy is this... I'm a registered Democrat, but my ideal candidate this year was McLean. Sadly, I couldn't vote for him in the primary. I've been unemployed for over a year because my job went to India. I blame the current administration and would give my principles up to get that guy out of the White House. Are things clearer now?

Oh yeah, much clearer. Thanks.

Lost your job, huh? Let's see. Outsourcing jobs -- all Bush's fault, right?

Let me ask you this: Around the turn of the 20th century, the internal combustion engine was really starting to take off. Obviously, as the idea caught on and people started buying automobiles, one can imagine what that did to the horse and buggy industry. So, using your logic today, would it have been fair to blame the William McKinley Administration for the loss of jobs manufacturing buggies?

To expound on that, what exactly should the president do when private companies decide to relocate certain positions overseas, where labor costs are lower? Should he force them to stay here? Since he's the commander-in-chief, should he utilize the armed forces to guard the airports and harbors and physically stop corporations from transferring operations to foreign countries?

Tell me, what would foreign countries do in response? Since their workers no longer have a shot at an American company importing jobs to them, would it be fair to say that maybe they'll stop buying our products or refuse to set up shop in America in return?

Since this is a free country, EEich, anyone is free to start a business and proceed to the best of their talents and abilities to make that business profitable wouldn't you agree? So let's say you start a company producing widgets, and thanks to unions, labor laws, and minimum wage standards in this country, you see that you can produce these widgets in Malaysia for around $.30 an hour as opposed to the $8.00 an hour it would cost here. So as a practical business owner who's obviously in the business to make money and keep your company afloat, what would happen to your company if an Administration prevented you, through the force of law, from making the best decision in the interest of basic economics? You'd be out of business -- and what would our economy look like if this were the standard everyone had to abide by from the threat of the federal government?

Not only that, someone else in another country who doesn't have to deal with suicidal economic policies that you'd apparently like to see can go to Malaysia, produce those widgets, and sell them for far less than American companies can -- now, what does that do for the American company who couldn't take advantage of lower manufacturing costs like everyone else can? BINGO. That company goes out of business.

I don't know specifically what your job was that was shipped to India. But could it be said that maybe you should have had some forsight to see that what you were doing might be at risk, and therefore, it might be up to you to increase your job skills, and make yourself more marketable? How is that George Bush's fault?

McCain's great. I wish he had won in 2000

McCain wouldn't have been so bad if it weren't for that dreadful Campaign Finance Reform law he thought of. For some reason, the notion that the government can now prohibit an individual or group of individuals from pooling money together to buy an ad on TV strikes me as sort of unAmerican -- not to mention violates free speech.

Voting principles is fine...
But voting for your ideal candidate is more likely to get the greater of two evils elected.

My analogy of betting on the Cardinals is not flawed... The Cardinals have no reasonable chance to win the Superbowl... betting on them is throwing your money/vote away. It's not a matter of jumping on a bandwagon.
To prove my point, I will bet you $5 on the election and give you ten million to one odds.

Voting with your heart is fine... voting with your head makes more sense to me.

First of all, you're comparing money -- something that's liquid with value, that I could lose if I'm not smart -- and a vote. I lose nothing if the election doesn't go my way. I have stood for my principles and cast my vote for the candidate that best represents my ideals. I have lost nothing if that candidate doesn't win.

But what if neither candidate fits my ideals? You're saying I should vote for someone who I don't agree with because they have a better chance of winning? What sense does that make? Is that how you would describe "voting with your head"?

You have alot of f-ing nerve to criticize my situation and forsight without a clue. I'm pretty talented at what I do. I busted my ass on a project with a hard working team for four years. When the project development ended, support went overseas. It was the first system in our company to be outsourced, and by the time we knew, it was too late... There are thousands of people like me.

If you're comfortable with the way things are going here in the good ole USA... by all means, vote for Bush. I hope you always have the luxury of holding to your principles. Personally, I'd rather feed my family.

Oh yeah, much clearer. Thanks.

Lost your job, huh? Let's see. Outsourcing jobs -- all Bush's fault, right?

Let me ask you this: Around the turn of the 20th century, the internal combustion engine was really starting to take off. Obviously, as the idea caught on and people started buying automobiles, one can imagine what that did to the horse and buggy industry. So, using your logic today, would it have been fair to blame the William McKinley Administration for the loss of jobs manufacturing buggies?

To expound on that, what exactly should the president do when private companies decide to relocate certain positions overseas, where labor costs are lower? Should he force them to stay here? Since he's the commander-in-chief, should he utilize the armed forces to guard the airports and harbors and physically stop corporations from transferring operations to foreign countries?

Tell me, what would foreign countries do in response? Since their workers no longer have a shot at an American company importing jobs to them, would it be fair to say that maybe they'll stop buying our products or refuse to set up shop in America in return?

Since this is a free country, EEich, anyone is free to start a business and proceed to the best of their talents and abilities to make that business profitable wouldn't you agree? So let's say you start a company producing widgets, and thanks to unions, labor laws, and minimum wage standards in this country, you see that you can produce these widgets in Malaysia for around $.30 an hour as opposed to the $8.00 an hour it would cost here. So as a practical business owner who's obviously in the business to make money and keep your company afloat, what would happen to your company if an Administration prevented you, through the force of law, from making the best decision in the interest of basic economics? You'd be out of business -- and what would our economy look like if this were the standard everyone had to abide by from the threat of the federal government?

Not only that, someone else in another country who doesn't have to deal with suicidal economic policies that you'd apparently like to see can go to Malaysia, produce those widgets, and sell them for far less than American companies can -- now, what does that do for the American company who couldn't take advantage of lower manufacturing costs like everyone else can? BINGO. That company goes out of business.

I don't know specifically what your job was that was shipped to India. But could it be said that maybe you should have had some forsight to see that what you were doing might be at risk, and therefore, it might be up to you to increase your job skills, and make yourself more marketable? How is that George Bush's fault?

Congratulations... you must live on an island without family and friends.

I lose nothing if the election doesn't go my way.

I'm suggesting you vote for someone that has a realistic chance of making this country a better place than it is now.

You're saying I should vote for someone who I don't agree with because they have a better chance of winning?

Mingya Politics get ugly. I defintley agree with EEich about the jobs being exported out of the United States. I wouldnt blame it all on the Bush administartion, hell I dont really even know who's fault it is, or when it started, I'm only 18. All I do know is that it has to stop, somehow. Its garbage that people who work their asses off for degree's and pay all that money, then finally get a job, just to have it taken away from them after three years of busting their ass. Often times they have to spend all that money again to learn somthing new. I know its easy to just say, the jobs have to stay here, and I really dont know how it is supposed to work, I'm still learning all that stuff. I just know the principles of it suck.

I don't know who started it... probably Clinton (NAFTA). I just know that Kerry has said he will do something about it and Bush hasn't.

Mingya Politics get ugly. I defintley agree with EEich about the jobs being exported out of the United States. I wouldnt blame it all on the Bush administartion, hell I dont really even know who's fault it is, or when it started, I'm only 18. All I do know is that it has to stop, somehow. Its garbage that people who work their asses off for degree's and pay all that money, then finally get a job, just to have it taken away from them after three years of busting their ass. Often times they have to spend all that money again to learn somthing new. I know its easy to just say, the jobs have to stay here, and I really dont know how it is supposed to work, I'm still learning all that stuff. I just know the principles of it suck.

Mingya Politics get ugly. I defintley agree with EEich about the jobs being exported out of the United States. I wouldnt blame it all on the Bush administartion, hell I dont really even know who's fault it is, or when it started, I'm only 18. All I do know is that it has to stop, somehow. Its garbage that people who work their asses off for degree's and pay all that money, then finally get a job, just to have it taken away from them after three years of busting their ass. Often times they have to spend all that money again to learn somthing new. I know its easy to just say, the jobs have to stay here, and I really dont know how it is supposed to work, I'm still learning all that stuff. I just know the principles of it suck.

Just out of curiousity, did you read my post on the matter? When you work for someone else, you're sort of at their mercy. That's the way it goes. If you started a business, and you realize that you could make more money by manufacturing a product somewhere else for less, wouldn't you do that?

It works the same way when you buy something. If you go to Circuit City and find Madden 2005 for $49.95, but Best Buy has the same thing for $39.95, what would you do? Do you suck it up and say, "well, these people at Circuit City bust their ass, I'll bite the loss because I'm a swell guy," and fork over the extra 10 bucks? Of course not!

Businesses work the same way. They maximize profits so that they can stay in business. That's the name of the game in simple, basic economics.

You have alot of f-ing nerve to criticize my situation and forsight without a clue. I'm pretty talented at what I do. I busted my ass on a project with a hard working team for four years. When the project development ended, support went overseas. It was the first system in our company to be outsourced, and by the time we knew, it was too late... There are thousands of people like me.

If you're comfortable with the way things are going here in the good ole USA... by all means, vote for Bush. I hope you always have the luxury of holding to your principles. Personally, I'd rather feed my family.

No, I'm not comfortable with everything here. And I'm not voting for Bush. But how you can blame him because your company gained support overseas is beyond me. Do you blame William McKinley for the jobs all those people lost manufacturing parts for buggies? What did he have to do with that?

I think the root of our disagreement lies with what we believe the function of government is. One of the things I can assure it has no control over, nor is does it have any legal obligation to protect is job losses. Like I said in my example, what is Bush or the government in general supposed to do? If it forces companies to stay here, then other companies who can manufacture a product elsewhere for less will survive and companies that are handcuffed here will go out of business.