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Steve Young's family up against Mormon church on Prop. 8

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Old 08-07-2010, 08:53 AM   #301
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Re: Steve Young's family up against Mormon church on Prop. 8

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Originally Posted by saden1 View Post
Question...would any of you who don't like the idea of gay marriage vote against a proposition similar to prop 8 if it were on your state ballet?
In VA, it would depend on how the law was written, but I could vote against it.

(Not to completely derail the thread)That being said, I would be much more inclined to do so, if I knew as a quid pro quo those that support gay marriage would then support a national ban on third trimester abortion, except in the cases of a threat to the life of the mother.
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Old 08-07-2010, 10:48 AM   #302
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Re: Steve Young's family up against Mormon church on Prop. 8

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Originally Posted by BleedBurgundy View Post
Oh, I misunderstood you, thought you were referring to me for some reason... no doubt ignorance and fear play a big role for extremists of any type, not just pertaining to this issue.
I was just speaking in general, sorry that wasn't clear
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Old 08-08-2010, 12:04 AM   #303
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Re: Steve Young's family up against Mormon church on Prop. 8

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Originally Posted by GusFrerotte View Post
I agree to some extent, but social issues matter. Why do I say that? Simple, because the breakdown of social mores, etc has helped contribute to the economic crisis that we are facing. What is the major factor in our impending economic collapse? Greed and the lust for power. On top of that, folks want something for nothing. There is nothing outside of chasing the almighty buck anymore. Outside of this people don't really believe in anything. Nihlism is the order of the day, absolutely no morality at all. Gambling, drug and alcohol abuse, etc all have negative consequences on society as a whole.
true.. those factors didn't create capitalism and greed though
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Old 08-08-2010, 12:05 AM   #304
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Re: Steve Young's family up against Mormon church on Prop. 8

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America is a conglomerate of communities though, same with VA.
the Amish community and a township community don't begin to compare as one is more ideological and the other geographical
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Old 08-08-2010, 07:43 AM   #305
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Re: Steve Young's family up against Mormon church on Prop. 8

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Originally Posted by GusFrerotte View Post
I agree to some extent, but social issues matter. Why do I say that? Simple, because the breakdown of social mores, etc has helped contribute to the economic crisis that we are facing. What is the major factor in our impending economic collapse? Greed and the lust for power. On top of that, folks want something for nothing. There is nothing outside of chasing the almighty buck anymore. Outside of this people don't really believe in anything. Nihlism is the order of the day, absolutely no morality at all. Gambling, drug and alcohol abuse, etc all have negative consequences on society as a whole.
The problem I have with the social issues crowd is that they feel the best way to deal with things like drugs, gambling or, in this case, homosexual behavior/marriage, is criminalization. The notion that we can do away with whatever we don't like with the wave of a legislative wand. There are always unintended consequences when you go that route, and, it only tends to make things worse. The War on Drugs is the very best example of this.

Also, when I pin social conservatives down on exactly how society is impacted by homosexual marriage, how they are directly affected, or how their marriage suffers because gays can call themselves married, nobody's been able to do it.

There's a mentality among too many of us which essentially says, "someone is doing something I don't like, so therefore, I want to see that activity banned." We often say our liberty and freedom is under attack from the political left. Well, we can clearly see that the political right also wants to take away our liberty and freedom too, just in different areas.
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Old 08-08-2010, 08:58 AM   #306
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Re: Steve Young's family up against Mormon church on Prop. 8

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It's funny that with issues like homosexuality and drugs, social conservatives lose their capacity for logic and rational thought.
They lose a lot of "logic and rational" on most social issues it seems.
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Old 08-08-2010, 01:55 PM   #307
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Re: Steve Young's family up against Mormon church on Prop. 8

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Originally Posted by Slingin Sammy 33 View Post
In VA, it would depend on how the law was written, but I could vote against it.

(Not to completely derail the thread)That being said, I would be much more inclined to do so, if I knew as a quid pro quo those that support gay marriage would then support a national ban on third trimester abortion, except in the cases of a threat to the life of the mother.
This is the text of Prop 8, let's go with that.

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Section I. Title
This measure shall be known and may be cited as the "California Marriage Protection Act."

Section 2. Article I. Section 7.5 is added to the California Constitution. to read:
Sec. 7.5. Only marriage between a man and a woman is valid or recognized in California.
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Originally Posted by Slingin Sammy 33 View Post

(Not to completely derail the thread)That being said, I would be much more inclined to do so, if I knew as a quid pro quo those that support gay marriage would then support a national ban on third trimester abortion, except in the cases of a threat to the life of the mother.

I'm not entirely sure what you're saying here unless you get something in return? You have a right to put up a prop on the ballet.
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Old 08-08-2010, 02:57 PM   #308
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Re: Steve Young's family up against Mormon church on Prop. 8

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Originally Posted by saden1 View Post
This is the text of Prop 8, let's go with that.

I'm not entirely sure what you're saying here unless you get something in return? You have a right to put up a prop on the ballet.
First part, yes. I could vote against that.

Second part, life is a negotiation. Why would I give my support to something I'm morally against without a quid pro quo. And since we're asking hypothetical questions....if I was successful in putting a prop on the ballot in Washington State outlawing third trimester abortion do you support it? If not, and there's a gay marriage support prop on the ballot and conservatives in Wash St. agree to support the gay marriage prop, do you then support the third trimester abortion ban?
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Old 08-08-2010, 05:11 PM   #309
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Re: Steve Young's family up against Mormon church on Prop. 8

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First part, yes. I could vote against that.

Second part, life is a negotiation. Why would I give my support to something I'm morally against without a quid pro quo. And since we're asking hypothetical questions....if I was successful in putting a prop on the ballot in Washington State outlawing third trimester abortion do you support it? If not, and there's a gay marriage support prop on the ballot and conservatives in Wash St. agree to support the gay marriage prop, do you then support the third trimester abortion ban?
We are voters not legislators able to cut deals. I tend to base my vote on things I believe or don't believe in not whether I can get something in return or how others vote. I believe in a ban on partial birth abortion as long as there is no health issue, including mental health. It is a reasonable...you got 4 months to make a decision, make one and live with it.

Do the right thing, always, and if you think gay marriage is morally wrong but a ban on it constitutionally indefensible you need to make a choice where you stand and how you vote. Don't try to bargain and hold people hostage because it makes it easier for you to make a choice and feel good about your choice.
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Old 08-08-2010, 10:58 PM   #310
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Re: Steve Young's family up against Mormon church on Prop. 8

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Originally Posted by saden1 View Post
We are voters not legislators able to cut deals. I tend to base my vote on things I believe or don't believe in not whether I can get something in return or how others vote. I believe in a ban on partial birth abortion as long as there is no health issue, including mental health. It is a reasonable...you got 4 months to make a decision, make one and live with it.

Do the right thing, always, and if you think gay marriage is morally wrong but a ban on it constitutionally indefensible you need to make a choice where you stand and how you vote. Don't try to bargain and hold people hostage because it makes it easier for you to make a choice and feel good about your choice.
LOL on the lecture. You also mention ban on partial birth abortion, not third trimester. You then throw in the caveat of "mental health" which makes a ban basically not worth the paper it's written on. So much for the courage of going against the hard core left's social agenda.

I knew where you were going with this, just wondering how long it would take to get there....and we're at the same spot as always.
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Old 08-08-2010, 11:34 PM   #311
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Re: Steve Young's family up against Mormon church on Prop. 8

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Originally Posted by saden1 View Post
We are voters not legislators able to cut deals. I tend to base my vote on things I believe or don't believe in not
I tend to vote on which I think would be better for the greater population. Though personally I have a lot of conservative views I don't think that my singular opinion should be reflected in the governance of such a diverse nation.
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Old 08-09-2010, 02:06 AM   #312
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Re: Steve Young's family up against Mormon church on Prop. 8

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LOL on the lecture. You also mention ban on partial birth abortion, not third trimester. You then throw in the caveat of "mental health" which makes a ban basically not worth the paper it's written on. So much for the courage of going against the hard core left's social agenda.

I knew where you were going with this, just wondering how long it would take to get there....and we're at the same spot as always.
I am more than happy to be the professor. Have you resolved your conflict or you still in limbo? Just know that it isn't necessary for you to display compliance in an online forum.

What would the text of your prop say? Ban third trimester in all cases except when health is an issue but not mental health? I never claimed to go against "hard core leftist social agenda." Where is that coming from? Are you simply throwing an anchor and hoping it catches something?
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Old 08-09-2010, 04:02 AM   #313
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Re: Steve Young's family up against Mormon church on Prop. 8

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I tend to vote on which I think would be better for the greater population. Though personally I have a lot of conservative views I don't think that my singular opinion should be reflected in the governance of such a diverse nation.
Give me an instance where you voted against your beliefs.
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Old 08-09-2010, 12:52 PM   #314
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Re: Steve Young's family up against Mormon church on Prop. 8

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I personally don't really care if gays get married or not but if I had to vote on the issue I would have to really take a close look at the pros & cons. We also have to remember the government does not ban gays from getting married they just don't recognize their marriage through the state. I have a gay cousin and a few friends that are gay. One actually says he has found god and is no longer gay so I guess in his case it was a choice. I have always felt that 50% of gays are born that way and the other 50% choose the life style for one reason or the other.
50%? So you think half of the gay population choses that lifestyle cause its cool? Yeah Im sure they enjoy prevalent discrimination, being the victim of hate crimes, higher sucide and substance abuse rates...I dont think too many people who want to chose that...i think your ratio is off, more like 95% to 5% and half of the 5% probably in jail.
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Old 08-09-2010, 01:45 PM   #315
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Re: Steve Young's family up against Mormon church on Prop. 8

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It's not about sheltering kids from "ever" receiving the education or actually being delusional enough to think they're not going to find out about it. It IS about believing that individual families have the right to decide how/when the child is introduced to such realities. I don't personally believe that a kid learns about homosexuality = a kid decides to be gay. So, Matty's comment in response to your post is a typical misread of the situation and pretty common overreaction. I do find it entertaining (and disappointing) that those most up in arms about the rights of those they agree with are the first to resort to name calling and sarcasm instead of rational discussion, on both sides. I support everyone else's right to freedom up until the second that it infringes upon my own. I don't believe that to be unreasonable, it's just the truth.
I agree that individual families have the right to decide for themselves. I would (almost) never want to decide for others, which is why I support gay marriage. I just don't understand those families that would shelter their kids from learning about reality.

To me, it's all about teaching critical thinking above all else. If your child is learning math, then they're capable of learning critical thinking.

But, it seems most parents today are less concerned about giving their children the tools to think critically -- so they can arrive at their own decisions (which will inevitably happen anyways) -- and are more concerned with influencing their decisions and opinions. It's a model for failure IMO.
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