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Steve Young's family up against Mormon church on Prop. 8

Debating with the enemy


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Old 11-06-2008, 11:08 PM   #61
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Re: Steve Young's family up against Mormon church on Prop. 8

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Originally Posted by saden1 View Post
What prop 8 did was make it illegal for the state government to issue marriage licenses to gay couples. It essentially denies them the legal benefits of marriage.
So no one gets thrown in jail? Hmmmmm, could've sworn I said something to that effect.
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Old 11-06-2008, 11:10 PM   #62
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Re: Steve Young's family up against Mormon church on Prop. 8

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Why do I keep letting myself get dragged into this???

UGH.

You're right Matty. I guess we should all embrace that wonderful reality and remove all impediments to indecency. There is such a thing as a slippery slope, while I agree that the analogy gets abused, there is truth in its origination.

You guys win, I'm clearly a neo-nazi, fundamentalist, hatred-spouting, ignorant, bigoted jackass with no opinion worth expressing. First thing tomorrow morning, I promise to put a rainbow flag on my truck and join GLAAD. Later, I'll attempt to find a pride parade to march in. If you see me, wave, I'll be dressed like this


Later.
Honestly, what sort of exposure to gay people have you had in your lifetime? Just curious. Any good friends or family?
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Old 11-06-2008, 11:12 PM   #63
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Re: Steve Young's family up against Mormon church on Prop. 8

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Originally Posted by DynamiteRave View Post
Beemn, I can't figure out where you stand on this. You seem to be against it, but seem to enjoy picking at other people's views? I dunno.

Was just curious.
I'm for personal freedom and individual rights. If someone finds love or pleasure in the arms of another person who happens to be of the same sex, it should be absolutely, perfectly legal. Same for gay marriage.

And yes, I do enjoy unravelling the logic of those with whom I disagree.
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Old 11-06-2008, 11:14 PM   #64
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Re: Steve Young's family up against Mormon church on Prop. 8

BleedBurgundy, you're not a neo-nazi but the validity of your argument leaves much to be desired. You are entitled to your opinions but I would argue that it's antiquated and out dated. People might agree with you but as a matter of fairness and equality it's an insidious position to hold.
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Old 11-06-2008, 11:15 PM   #65
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Re: Steve Young's family up against Mormon church on Prop. 8

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I'm for personal freedom and individual rights. If someone finds love or pleasure in the arms of another person who happens to be of the same sex, it should be absolutely, perfectly legal. Same for gay marriage.

And yes, I do enjoy unravelling the logic of those with whom I disagree.
amen, live and let live
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Old 11-06-2008, 11:16 PM   #66
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Re: Steve Young's family up against Mormon church on Prop. 8

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Originally Posted by BleedBurgundy View Post
So no one gets thrown in jail? Hmmmmm, could've sworn I said something to that effect.
Do you, or do you not believe gay marriage should be illegal?

If you think it should be legal, then I officially take back my statement.

But if you do think it should be illegal, then you have to be prepared to support the idea that people should be thrown in jail if they disobey the law. Otherwise, what's the purpose of laws?
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Old 11-06-2008, 11:16 PM   #67
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Re: Steve Young's family up against Mormon church on Prop. 8

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Honestly, what sort of exposure to gay people have you had in your lifetime? Just curious. Any good friends or family?
I was purposefully trying to avoid the "I'm not racist, I have black friends" kind of argument.

Since you asked, I had a friend in High School who was gay and I knew quite a few gay/lesbian folks while I was in the Navy, both service members and citizens of Iceland/Italy where I lived. I also currently work with a few people who are out, who knows how many that aren't. I would honestly classify them as working relationships and acquaintances more than close friends.

Oh, I forgot to add, I used to date a girl who lived in Greenwich Village in NYC. Got plenty of exposure there.
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Old 11-06-2008, 11:16 PM   #68
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Re: Steve Young's family up against Mormon church on Prop. 8

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So no one gets thrown in jail? Hmmmmm, could've sworn I said something to that effect.
Oh, people can go jail. If a court clerk issues a marriage license to a gay couple they to jail.
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Old 11-06-2008, 11:18 PM   #69
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Re: Steve Young's family up against Mormon church on Prop. 8

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Originally Posted by Beemnseven View Post
Do you, or do you not believe gay marriage should be illegal?

If you think it should be legal, then I officially take back my statement.

But if you do think it should be illegal, then you have to be prepared to support the idea that people should be thrown in jail if they disobey the law. Otherwise, what's the purpose of laws?
In the scenario you present, the ones who would be breaking the law are those that are issuing the marriage licenses, i.e. government officials who are making a clear choice to disobey the laws they are sworn to obey. So in that instance, the officials would deserve some sort of punishment, what sort I have no desire to quantify.

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Originally Posted by saden1
Oh, people can go jail. If a court clerk issues a marriage license to a gay couple the to jail.
see above.
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Old 11-06-2008, 11:20 PM   #70
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Re: Steve Young's family up against Mormon church on Prop. 8

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I was purposefully trying to avoid the "I'm not racist, I have black friends" kind of argument.

Since you asked, I had a friend in High School who was gay and I knew quite a few gay/lesbian folks while I was in the Navy, both service members and citizens of Iceland/Italy where I lived. I also currently work with a few people who are out, who knows how many that aren't. I would honestly classify them as working relationships and acquaintances more than close friends.
I thought it was worth asking simply to understand your point of view better. Now it makes a bit more sense.
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Old 11-06-2008, 11:28 PM   #71
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Re: Steve Young's family up against Mormon church on Prop. 8

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amen, live and let live
I'm always perplexed when ballot measures like these (and for marijuana decriminalization) seem to fail. Especially in California.

David Frum, a conservative writer for National Review said that all you have to do is look at the demographics for those who find the gay issue so important -- it's overwhelmingly over the age of 40.

One day, the tide will turn.
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Old 11-06-2008, 11:31 PM   #72
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Re: Steve Young's family up against Mormon church on Prop. 8

The real argument here is not that anyone goes to jail but the denial of services available to heterosexuals to homosexuals based on the belief that the moral fabrics of our culture would be endangered if we did not.

You will note that this is the same argument used throughout history to oppress and discriminate against certain groups.
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Old 11-06-2008, 11:32 PM   #73
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Re: Steve Young's family up against Mormon church on Prop. 8

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Originally Posted by Beemnseven View Post
I'm always perplexed when ballot measures like these (and for marijuana decriminalization) seem to fail. Especially in California.

David Frum, a conservative writer for National Review said that all you have to do is look at the demographics for those who find the gay issue so important -- it's overwhelmingly over the age of 40.

One day, the tide will turn.
Here's hoping, Beemn.
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Old 11-06-2008, 11:34 PM   #74
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Re: Steve Young's family up against Mormon church on Prop. 8

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I thought it was worth asking simply to understand your point of view better. Now it makes a bit more sense.
The real interesting question you should've asked is have I not had the chance to have any close friendships with gay individuals or have I made choices to specifically avoid that scenario. The answer is, I don't know. I get what you're saying, I've never had any true emotional/first hand investment in someone of this persuasion so how can I be sympathetic with their plight? It's not a question I haven't asked myself. But I still come back to my previously stated position.
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Old 11-06-2008, 11:37 PM   #75
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Re: Steve Young's family up against Mormon church on Prop. 8

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Originally Posted by saden1 View Post
The real argument here is not that anyone goes to jail but the denial of services available to heterosexuals to homosexuals based on the belief that the moral fabrics of our culture would be endangered if we did not.

You will note that this is the same argument used throughout history to oppress and discriminate against certain groups.
I won't lie, I can see why someone who is a member of one of those "certain groups," having experienced discrimination would be so averse to any preference denied a given demographic, almost regardless of reason. I hope I worded that well.
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