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Steve Young's family up against Mormon church on Prop. 8

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Old 11-07-2008, 11:48 PM   #106
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Re: Steve Young's family up against Mormon church on Prop. 8

I still have yet to hear a persuasive argument as to why homosexuality is wrong or how gay marriage is harmful to society. I've heard, "it's unnatural and so it's wrong" (the very same argument advanced with respect to interracial marriages). Homosexuality is "natural" insofar as people are born gay. Additionally, people do a lot of "unnatural" things which are, by all accounts, not immoral. Flying in a steel object at 30,000 feet at 400 miles per hour isn't "natural," but that doesn't make flying from D.C. to L.A. on US Airlines immoral. So, even if homosexuality is "unnatural," that doesn't make it wrong.

I've also heard that homosexuality and gay marriage are wrong because they accelerate the decay of social values (again, the very same argument advanced with respect to interracial marriage). That's conclusory and circular "logic" at its worst. What values does gay marriage erode, the importance of making a lifelong commitment to your partner?

I've also heard gay marriage is wrong, but it's difficult to articulate why it's wrong. I can articulate why murder, rape, robbery, fraud, etc. are wrong, so why can't opponents of homosexuality/gay marriage do the same? Because they can't.

I've also heard that homosexuality and gay marriage have been deemed immoral for thousands of years, as if that is somehow proof positive of immorality. Slavery existed for thousands of years, and still does in some places. Women were treated as property for thousands of years, and still are in many areas of the globe. Tradition isn't always a good thing. In fact, all too often tradition is used as a hollow justification for denying people access to rights that all people should enjoy.

I've also heard that gay marriage is dangerous because it could, possibly, someday lead to all sorts of crazy relationships (e.g., "If we allow gay marriage, we'll end up allowing people to marry a can of spam!"). Address each issue on the merits. Slippery slope arguments are, in general, pretty weak and this one is no exception.

Basically, opposing gay marriage or homosexuality in general comes down to intolerance and a paternalistic and perverse desire to impose personal sexual preferences on the rest of society.

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Old 11-08-2008, 12:00 AM   #107
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Re: Steve Young's family up against Mormon church on Prop. 8

Very nice post SGG.
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Old 11-08-2008, 01:35 AM   #108
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Re: Steve Young's family up against Mormon church on Prop. 8

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Originally Posted by Sheriff Gonna Getcha View Post
I still have yet to hear a persuasive argument as to why homosexuality is wrong or how gay marriage is harmful to society. I've heard, "it's unnatural and so it's wrong" (the very same argument advanced with respect to interracial marriages). Homosexuality is "natural" insofar as people are born gay. Additionally, people do a lot of "unnatural" things which are, by all accounts, not immoral. Flying in a steel object at 30,000 feet at 400 miles per hour isn't "natural," but that doesn't make flying from D.C. to L.A. on US Airlines immoral. So, even if homosexuality is "unnatural," that doesn't make it wrong.

I've also heard that homosexuality and gay marriage are wrong because they accelerate the decay of social values (again, the very same argument advanced with respect to interracial marriage). That's conclusory and circular "logic" at its worst. What values does gay marriage erode, the importance of making a lifelong commitment to your partner?

I've also heard gay marriage is wrong, but it's difficult to articulate why it's wrong. I can articulate why murder, rape, robbery, fraud, etc. are wrong, so why can't opponents of homosexuality/gay marriage do the same? Because they can't.

I've also heard that homosexuality and gay marriage have been deemed immoral for thousands of years, as if that is somehow proof positive of immorality. Slavery existed for thousands of years, and still does in some places. Women were treated as property for thousands of years, and still are in many areas of the globe. Tradition isn't always a good thing. In fact, all too often tradition is used as a hollow justification for denying people access to rights that all people should enjoy.

I've also heard that gay marriage is dangerous because it could, possibly, someday lead to all sorts of crazy relationships (e.g., "If we allow gay marriage, we'll end up allowing people to marry a can of spam!"). Address each issue on the merits. Slippery slope arguments are, in general, pretty weak and this one is no exception.

Basically, opposing gay marriage or homosexuality in general comes down to intolerance and a paternalistic and perverse desire to impose personal sexual preferences on the rest of society.
I think you just hit a walk-off. Debate over.
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Old 11-08-2008, 02:48 AM   #109
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Re: Steve Young's family up against Mormon church on Prop. 8

A toast to the chewbacca defense.

Last edited by saden1; 11-08-2008 at 08:47 AM. Reason: don't write while half asleep
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Old 11-09-2008, 08:02 PM   #110
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Re: Steve Young's family up against Mormon church on Prop. 8

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Wow, I can't tell if you're serious or clowning. If you're serious that's unbecoming. The constitution is what exactly? It deals with what exactly? Statutory law deals with more than issues concerning morality.

Edit: It occurred to me you might be arguing that every issue we deal with has a moral component. In that respect you are right. My comment, however, was with respect to legislating Christian morality which is the bases for anti-gay sentiment.

Morality is not the same thing as sexuality. When people say "You can't legislate morality" what they really mean is "You shouldn't legislate sexuality". But even that is unavoidable. You have to draw the line somewhere.

Change should be organic. The people simply aren't ready. Homosexuals should concentrate on passing laws that don't seem like such a frontal assault on traditions that have been developed over many centuries. Revolutions that don't proceed from a strong popular consensus often have dangerous results. This is the difference between the American Revolution, for instance, and the one they had in France.
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Old 11-09-2008, 10:24 PM   #111
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Re: Steve Young's family up against Mormon church on Prop. 8

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Morality is not the same thing as sexuality. When people say "You can't legislate morality" what they really mean is "You shouldn't legislate sexuality". But even that is unavoidable. You have to draw the line somewhere.

Change should be organic. The people simply aren't ready. Homosexuals should concentrate on passing laws that don't seem like such a frontal assault on traditions that have been developed over many centuries. Revolutions that don't proceed from a strong popular consensus often have dangerous results. This is the difference between the American Revolution, for instance, and the one they had in France.
Most people aren't yet ready to see gay couples getting married. There's no question that the majority of Americans don't want the states to recognize gay marriage.

However, opponents of gay marriage hurt their cause when they advocate the passage of constitutional amendments, propositions, etc. to ban gay marriage. Such laws have brought the "gay marriage debate" to the forefront of national politics and suggest that the issue is so important that legislators should spend time on it during wartime and a deep recession. Think about it, a few short years ago there was no debate over gay marriage outside of academia. Now, it's all over the news and people like us are giving it serious thought.

Moreover, gay marriage bans are powerful and highly visible symbols of inequality. It's not the same as seeing dogs bite at people peacefully marching in Birmingham, but it will lead to the same result. U.S. history shows that visible symbols of inequality tend to spur debate and typically result in the extension of civil rights.
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Old 11-09-2008, 11:24 PM   #112
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Re: Steve Young's family up against Mormon church on Prop. 8

Heres a page that help debunks the myths spread by the yes on prop 8 movement. Sad to see that they got away with lies convincing people that suddenly homosexuality was going to be forced on everyone including unsuspecting school children and churches would be forced to shut down due to discrimination. Which personally might have been the only "genuine" reasons to vote yes on 8, but with that said maybe the churches should reexamine their stance on this issue.

No On 8, Don't Eliminate Marriage For Anyone
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Old 11-10-2008, 10:08 AM   #113
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Re: Steve Young's family up against Mormon church on Prop. 8

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Morality is not the same thing as sexuality. When people say "You can't legislate morality" what they really mean is "You shouldn't legislate sexuality". But even that is unavoidable. You have to draw the line somewhere.

Change should be organic. The people simply aren't ready. Homosexuals should concentrate on passing laws that don't seem like such a frontal assault on traditions that have been developed over many centuries. Revolutions that don't proceed from a strong popular consensus often have dangerous results. This is the difference between the American Revolution, for instance, and the one they had in France.
While I understand the resistance of the mob I will not accept the notion that "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness" has to be scheduled. Yes, you have to draw the line somewhere but where the line is drawn has to be based on sound rational and fairness. One should avoid drawing lines with Tom Delay's pencil.

It is desirable that change be organic but matters of importances shouldn't be sat on. Sometimes issues must be forced (i.e. revolution, civil rights, civil war, etc). You have to confront gay marrige head on instead of tip toeing around it. If you don't the masses will simply assume all is well which is not the case. I am sure when we look back at the gay marriage ban thirty years from now we will wonder how people could favor such blatant injustice.

The French Revolution (a first class clusterfuck) is far too complex to compare to any other revolution let alone the American Revolution. Interestingly one of the contributing factors to the demise of Louis XVI was his financial support of the American Revolution at the expense of his countrymen (bankrupted France).
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Old 11-11-2008, 12:04 PM   #114
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Re: Steve Young's family up against Mormon church on Prop. 8

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I am sure when we look back at the gay marriage ban thirty years from now we will wonder how people could favor such blatant injustice.

In thirty years, the cultural atmosphere is going to be so debased and rotten that no one will have the perspective to make the comparison. This has already happened in Europe. You have an entire continent of moral idiots completely unable to distinguish between good and evil or recognize when there is danger at their door.
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Old 11-11-2008, 12:24 PM   #115
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Re: Steve Young's family up against Mormon church on Prop. 8

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In thirty years, the cultural atmosphere is going to be so debased and rotten that no one will have the perspective to make the comparison. This has already happened in Europe. You have an entire continent of moral idiots completely unable to distinguish between good and evil or recognize when there is danger at their door.
I don't know man, you're getting into Buster territory there and that's not a place you want to be. Just in case we happen to turn into that god forsaken continent called Europe I hope we still have places like Idaho, Utah, and Alaska left as a shining beacon of what was.

I am curious, what is it about Europe that disables its inhabitants from being able to distinguish good and evil and what is this danger do you speak of?
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Old 11-11-2008, 12:42 PM   #116
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Re: Steve Young's family up against Mormon church on Prop. 8

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I don't get the Quagmire reference.

Age of consent and legal age are largely the same thing, I think.

The tax angle is interesting.

The majority of men would not consider marrying another man either.
Quagmire is a character from Family Guy who went competatively overboard during a golf game. Family Guy - For the Love of Golf - AOL Video

Age of consent and legal age are two different ages. One allows you to vote, the other allows you to have consensual sex. In most states the ages are one and the same. In states like Georgia a 16 year old can consent to a 18 year old or something like that, and its ok. In my opinion the ages should both be the same, and they should remain 18. Going back to my original point, for the most part across this country, 18 is the Legal age for everything except alcohol, and with the exception of places like Georgia you cannot change one without the other. In other words the nation would never allow for 16 Year olds to vote, so the age for consensual sex will also remain in tact.

There are a larger population of men who would marry another man than those who would perform beastiality. At least man on man (as much as it weirds me out) is a union of the same species. A man and a man, if legally permitted, could fill out a joint tax return, because they both could work in the human work force. An animal could not because their is a very defined difference between Animal Rights and Civil Rights.

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Old 11-11-2008, 02:42 PM   #117
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Re: Steve Young's family up against Mormon church on Prop. 8

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gay people should be able to be as miserable as the rest of us. (don't remember where I heard that but its true)

LOL! Yeah maybe they won't be gay (happy) anymore if they got married.

Seriously does it realy matter who is f--ing who, it should only matter who you are f--ing.
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Old 11-11-2008, 11:50 PM   #118
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Re: Steve Young's family up against Mormon church on Prop. 8

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However, opponents of gay marriage hurt their cause when they advocate the passage of constitutional amendments, propositions, etc. to ban gay marriage. Such laws have brought the "gay marriage debate" to the forefront of national politics and suggest that the issue is so important that legislators should spend time on it during wartime and a deep recession. Think about it, a few short years ago there was no debate over gay marriage outside of academia. Now, it's all over the news and people like us are giving it serious thought.
I don't buy this. You are saying that no one ever thought of supporting gay marriage until someone opposed it first. This is dubious. And don't discount the influence of academia. I bet I could get from Harvard Yard to the Massachussets Supreme Court in less than par. If not physically, then certainly intellectually.

Our government is based on compromise. I am willing to extend all the legal rights of marriage to homosexuals. Since homosexuals are not really under seige in any serious way, is it too much too ask that I and likeminded folk be allowed the single, harmless concession of pretending that the institutions we hold dear will not be thrown under the bus? It is this way with all these issues. The courts leave traditionalists with nothing to hang their hat on, and then the left accuses them of radicalism if they dissent.

I also wouldn't object if the government simply ceased to recognize marriage completely and it became a purely religous designation. Treat everyone as an individual in the eyes of the law. Homosexuals would have no trouble finding Unitarians, etc. to "marry" them and traditionalists wouldn't be required to sanction something they abhor through public institutions. I've never been a big fan of the various benefits that married couples get anyways.
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Old 11-12-2008, 09:30 AM   #119
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Re: Steve Young's family up against Mormon church on Prop. 8

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Our government is based on compromise. I am willing to extend all the legal rights of marriage to homosexuals. Since homosexuals are not really under seige in any serious way, is it too much too ask that I and likeminded folk be allowed the single, harmless concession of pretending that the institutions we hold dear will not be thrown under the bus? It is this way with all these issues. The courts leave traditionalists with nothing to hang their hat on, and then the left accuses them of radicalism if they dissent.
In addition to legitimizing unions between man/man and woman/woman, recognizing that "marriage" includes same-sex couples is a shortcut to getting those legal rights. Without that, you would have to enact "separate but equal" laws in every single state. I am not a fan of that.

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I also wouldn't object if the government simply ceased to recognize marriage completely and it became a purely religous designation. Treat everyone as an individual in the eyes of the law. Homosexuals would have no trouble finding Unitarians, etc. to "marry" them and traditionalists wouldn't be required to sanction something they abhor through public institutions. I've never been a big fan of the various benefits that married couples get anyways.
I think the transaction costs would be exorbitant, since, first, you have to overhall all laws relating to marital rights (e.g., taxes, adoption, joint ownership, etc.) and, second, you would have to have to come up with new ways to handle those situations (e.g., how many people could adopt a child?).
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Old 11-12-2008, 07:08 PM   #120
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Re: Steve Young's family up against Mormon church on Prop. 8

Here's another argument against a gay marriage ban:

Right or wrong, the perception (and in some cases the reality) is that homosexuals tend to be more promiscuous than heterosexuals. So armed with that knowledge, why would we as a society try to prevent homosexuals from entering into a sacred, religious institution which promotes monogamy?
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