Obama Care

CRedskinsRule · 07-10-2009, 07:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by saden1

One must wonder if all is well in America in light of Obama's election. I say no and that we still have a long way to go.

Swim Club Members: "Nothing to Do With Race" | NBC Philadelphia

Quote:

Originally Posted by the other side of the story

Quote:

Originally Posted by club statement

The Valley Club is deeply troubled by the recent allegations of racism, which are completely untrue.

We had originally agreed to invite the camps to use our facility, knowing full well that the children from the camps were from multi-ethnic backgrounds. Unfortunately, we quickly learned that we underestimated the capacity of our facilities and realized that we could not accommodate the number of children from these camps. All funds were returned to the camps and we will re-evaluate the issue at a later date to determine whether it can be feasible in the future.

Our Valley Club deplores discrimination in any form, as is evidenced by our multi-ethnic and diverse membership. Whatever comments may or may not have been made by an individual member is an opinion not shared by The Valley Club Board.

Daniel Veres, a 16-year old Hispanic teen who is also a member, says the entire situation is just a misunderstanding. "We're not judgmental, we're just friendly," Veres said of the mostly white club.

For the children involved, the entire situation has left them simply sad and confused.

"I heard one lady saying 'Why's there so many black kids here' cause she said she was afraid that we might do something to her child," recalled camper Dymire Baylor. "How could they say that?"

If given the chance, the campers say they wouldn't step foot in the swim club, but they will be able to swim once again this summer. Girard College, a private Philadelphia boarding school for children who live in low-income and single parent homes, stepped in and offered their pool to Creative Steps.

"We had to help," said Girard College director of Admissions Tamara Leclair. "Every child deserves an incredible summer camp experience."

So the kids were given a refund and a different pool stepped up and offered them a place to swim. This is a FAR cry from being abused and sold as slaves or even the seperate but equal fallacy. It sounds like the club royally screwed up and that some, maybe most, members there have personal hangups, but don't make this into some "The US is still racist" jargon.

saden1 · 07-10-2009, 10:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CRedskinsRule

Swim Club Members: "Nothing to Do With Race" | NBC Philadelphia

So the kids were given a refund and a different pool stepped up and offered them a place to swim. This is a FAR cry from being abused and sold as slaves or even the seperate but equal fallacy. It sounds like the club royally screwed up and that some, maybe most, members there have personal hangups, but don't make this into some "The US is still racist" jargon.

If you're talking about equality and freedom their refusal was a big TT FAIL. It doesn't really matter that they were able to get a different pool to host the kids. The president of the club said:

Quote:

"There was concern that a lot of kids would change the complexion … and the atmosphere of the club," John Duesler, President of The Valley Swim Club said in a statement.

It doesn't get clearer than that and the fact that they said they couldn't host 65 kids with 8 supervisors is total bs once you see at the size of the club. This is the club.

It doesn't take a genius to see this for what it is.

CRedskinsRule · 07-10-2009, 10:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by saden1

If you're talking about equality and freedom their refusal was a big TT FAIL.

I wholeheartedly agree with this part.

JoeRedskin · 07-10-2009, 12:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by saden1

One must wonder if all is well in America in light of Obama's election. I say no and that we still have a long way to go.

Quote:

Originally Posted by saden1

If you're talking about equality and freedom their refusal was a big TT FAIL.

And so the unmitigated failure by one elitist club, that has been roundly condemned by every available outlet (show me one item saying that there exclusion of the kids was a good or even acceptable thing), is proof that the US as a nation has "a long way to go" towards racial tolerance and equality.

Talk about cherry picking your facts.

firstdown · 07-10-2009, 12:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GhettoDogAllStars

It's not impossible for the government to implement universal healthcare, but it's unreasonable to expect them to do it right? In other words, there is no way they can do it right. That is defeatist.

I'm not against looking at the failures, but when you never *ever* offer any positive ideas, and just keep saying why it won't work, that is defeatist. Also, it's lazy when you offer the reasons for failure "in the effort of prudence", but you never offer any advice about how it could work. In other words, you just want to examine the failures so you can continue to oppose Universal Healthcare. You don't want to examine to failures so you can correct them. That's lazy.

Why don't you come up with some positive ideas? How do you think it's possible for the government to take on such a huge financial burden? What would need to be sacrificed? I suspect your answers would be: What would need to be sacrificed?not possible and nothing.

Don't try and disguise your defeatist attitude with this crap. You know yourself that you're not interested in finding ways for it to work.

Why don't you come up with some positive ideas?
I just don't see any positives in this idea.

How do you think it's possible for the government to take on such a huge financial burden? To raise taxes over and over again to pay for a program that will run way over budget.

What would need to be sacrificed?
Higher cost and taxes.

not possible and nothing.
I don't think anyone here who is against the plan thinks its not possible its just that we feel its a bad idea.

firstdown · 07-10-2009, 12:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by saden1

One must wonder if all is well in America in light of Obama's election. I say no and that we still have a long way to go.

Your right and it goes both ways.
Ohio.com - Akron police investigate teen mob attack on family

saden1 · 07-10-2009, 12:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeRedskin

And so the unmitigated failure by one elitist club, that has been roundly condemned by every available outlet (show me one item saying that there exclusion of the kids was a good or even acceptable thing), is proof that the US as a nation has "a long way to go" towards racial tolerance and equality.

Talk about cherry picking your facts.

I don't have to cherry pick, it happened recently, it happened to kids, it has happened before and it happened in America. It's a perfect example if you ask me, do you want another example that demonstrates the road we must still travel? Or perhaps you're satisfied with "less frequency" of cases of racism (if only they included the non-direct incidents).

JoeRedskin · 07-10-2009, 01:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by saden1

I don't have to cherry pick, it happened recently, it happened to kids, it has happened before and it happened in America. It's a perfect example if you ask me, do you want another example that demonstrates the road we must still travel? Or perhaps you're satisfied with "less frequency" of cases of racism (if only they included the non-direct incidents).

Choosing one recent incident out of the millions of interactions that occur each day is cherry picking. I can cherry pick similar examples to show how far we have come in a very short time. A new day in Mississippi - The Daily Nightly - msnbc.com

Do racists still exist in America, absolutely. Are you seriously trying to tell me that racism is as prevalent as it was even one generation ago? Are you seriously trying to assert that large strides haven't been made when, during the course of my lifetime, it has gone from being legally acceptable to discriminate on the basis of race to being prohibited (and in some cases criminal)? Further, not only is it illegal, overt racism is condemned by the vast majority of Americans - as evidenced by the media coverage of this particular event. When racists are exposed, their actions are condemned. This is a far cry from even 30 years ago.

Using the stats given by you and raise them by a factor of 100 to relate unreported incidents of racial discrimination, we are still left with less than a a million "incidents" and "offenses" of racial bias in a population of over 306 million. Even if it we raise them by a factor of 1000, it still shows an effect on less than 2.8% of the population. Is it wrong for even one person to be the victim of racial prejudice? absolutely. Does the fact that it occurs mean we have "a long way to go", no.

We could debate how far we've come and how far we have to go on that particular topic all day but I don't think this is the thread for that.

saden1 · 07-10-2009, 01:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeRedskin

Choosing one recent incident out of the millions of interactions that occur each day is cherry picking. I can cherry pick similar examples to show how far we have come in a very short time. A new day in Mississippi - The Daily Nightly - msnbc.com

Do racists still exist in America, absolutely. Are you seriously trying to tell me that racism is as prevalent as it was even one generation ago? Are you seriously trying to assert that large strides haven't been made when, during the course of my lifetime, it has gone from being legally acceptable to discriminate on the basis of race to being prohibited (and in some cases criminal)? Further, not only is it illegal, overt racism is condemned by the vast majority of Americans - as evidenced by the media coverage of this particular event. When racists are exposed, their actions are condemned. This is a far cry from even 30 years ago.

Using the stats given by you and raise them by a factor of 100 to relate unreported incidents of racial discrimination, we are still left with less than a a million "incidents" and "offenses" of racial bias in a population of over 306 million. Even if it we raise them by a factor of 1000, it still shows an effect on less than 2.8% of the population. Is it wrong for even one person to be the victim of racial prejudice? absolutely. Does the fact that it occurs mean we have "a long way to go", no.

We could debate how far we've come and how far we have to go on that particular topic all day but I don't think this is the thread for that.

Saying "we still have a long way to go" is fair and accurate. I don't know why saying so is problematic for you and I am not even sure what your exception is.

All is better than it use to be is not the same as all is well.

jsarno · 07-10-2009, 02:53 PM

So let me get this right here are some quotes:

Quote:

"This has nothing to do with race," member Lori Slowinski said. "I paid my money for a private swim club…if they're gonna have it out to camps, then I want my money back."

Jim Flynn went right to the club president after the kids took the plunge into the 110,000 gallon pool. "I was the first person to talk to the president, because the pool was overcrowded," said Flynn. "As members we have nothing to hide. There's good people here."

So it's a PRIVATE club, yes? The PRIVATE club knew that club coming in was ethnically diverse, yes? But they still were going to allow them in, yes? The link shows this quote as well:

Quote:

Our Valley Club deplores discrimination in any form, as is evidenced by our multi-ethnic and diverse membership. Whatever comments may or may not have been made by an individual member is an opinion not shared by The Valley Club Board.

So it's not condoning some comments made by parents (which seems like only 1 was of the racist nature according to the link, but I'm sure there could be more)
Even a 16 year old minority MEMBER had this to say:

Quote:

Daniel Veres, a 16-year old Hispanic teen who is also a member, says the entire situation is just a misunderstanding. "We're not judgmental, we're just friendly,"

So do I blame parents for getting upset that nonmembers crowded their pool? Absolutely not. If you pay good money to belong to an (what they deem to be an) exclusive club thinking it was a part of a MEMBERSHIP, why should they not be upset when any group, no matter what the racial background, be brought in? Keep in mind the group brought in wasn't all black either.
Did some parents get racist, I don't know for sure, but I would certainly bet yes. Does this mean the Valley Swim Club deserves all this crap? ABSOLUTELY NOT! They tried to help out these kids, and when it realized what a problem their decision made, they corrected it. I do not believe it was racially driven as much as it was member driven. It was an unfortunate incident. But to say this is evidence of racism in america, really...this is your arguement? If it is, I am quite happy with the road abolishing racism has taken us. This seems more of something just to complain about than actual pure racism. The club itself is not 100% white, just because it is mainly white, doesn't make it purely white. There is a huge difference. If you can name me a black person that was turned away for MEMBERSHIP, then I will call this club racist. Until then, this is nothing more than a mix up.
It's amazing how we are soooo quick to play the racism card in every situation when it involves african americans. It doesn't matter that the group had other ethnic backgrounds. So what do those kids say? (from a white kid, or latino kid in the camp) "Mom, all these kids care about is the black kids going to swim...so not only am I not allowed to swim, I'm now being pushed aside of the camp I belong to...where do I fit in?"
I will point out something, this comes from the front page of the most racist orginization on the planet...the NAACP (

Quote:

The NAACP deplores the recent incident of racial discrimination at the Valley Swim Club in Philadelphia, in which a group of black day-camp children were told to leave a pool because they “changed the complexion and atmosphere” of the facility.

Is this the year 2009, or 1959?

This egregious episode casts us back in time, to the long, shameful era of Jim Crow segregation in America.

Does this FUEL the fire, or tell a story? It takes 1 blip from the comments and runs with it while there is a whole story to tell. This my friends is racist. It fuels racism in america. Instead of trying to educate of what actually happened, it only posts what it deemed relevant pointing out the incident what it believes to be racist.
Don't think the NAACP is racist? It's in their name. National Association for the ADVANCEMENT of [/b]Colored People[/b]. Not equality of colored people (which I would understand), not equality for all either. They don't even care about the equality of other "colored" people such as Latino's, or middle eastern people, or indian. No one finds that odd? Of course not, because we have been conditioned that racism is PURELY white on black. It couldn't possibly exist another way. Racism is racism. It's disgusting in every form. Latino to blacks, blacks to whites, indians to europeans...it's all the same. Racism is racism, and all of it needs to go away.
Please don't misconstrue what I am saying, I am not saying some of those parents that were making racial remarks are right, what I am saying is, the club should not be punished for the idiocracy of a few. And YES, MEMBERS should have the right to be picky about the public allowed in their pool no matter the ethnicity. If this was a group of predominantly white kids, and they were booted out, this wouldn't even make ANY type of news. Possibly wouldn't even make the news if they were mainly Latinos. Shame on us for making this such a national deal. That only fuels racism, not abolishes it.

saden1 · 07-10-2009, 03:05 PM

I have seen many a cluster-f*ck of a post in this forum but ^^^ takes the cake. Absolute trash.

firstdown · 07-10-2009, 03:05 PM

Are the people at that club complaining racist? Probably. Maybe some did have a concern with the crowding issue but if this was a bunch of white kids I'm not so sure they would have raised any concerns. This is also a good time for them to teach those kids that in life there will be people like this and how to deal with these issues. They are also better off spending their money at a pool that will treat them the way they should be treated.

jsarno · 07-10-2009, 03:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by saden1

I have seen many a cluster-f*ck of a post in this forum but ^^^ takes the cake. Absolute trash.

And yet another closed minded individual speaks. Bravo.
Nice way to debate where I was wrong. Not all of us need to share your skewed opinion.

saden1 · 07-10-2009, 03:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jsarno

And yet another closed minded individual speaks. Bravo.
Nice way to debate where I was wrong. Not all of us need to share your skewed opinion.

Worst Post Ever! Ever! It doesn't deserve to be debated!

I think I'm going to put a link to it on my message wall.

jsarno · 07-10-2009, 03:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by saden1

Worst Post Ever! Ever! It doesn't deserve to be debated!

I think I'm going to put a link to it on my message wall.

LOL...great idea.

07-10-2009, 03:05 PM	#236
saden1 Eternally Legendary Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Seattle Age: 33 Posts: 9,738	Re: Obama Care I have seen many a cluster-f*ck of a post in this forum but ^^^ takes the cake. Absolute trash. __________________ RG3, RGIII, RG三, RG३, RGγʹ, RGג, RG٣, RG๓, RG..., RG셋, RGԳ!

07-10-2009, 03:05 PM	#237
firstdown Living Legend Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: chesapeake, va Age: 49 Posts: 15,267	Re: Obama Care Are the people at that club complaining racist? Probably. Maybe some did have a concern with the crowding issue but if this was a bunch of white kids I'm not so sure they would have raised any concerns. This is also a good time for them to teach those kids that in life there will be people like this and how to deal with these issues. They are also better off spending their money at a pool that will treat them the way they should be treated. Last edited by firstdown; 07-10-2009 at 03:13 PM.

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Obama Care

Debating with the enemy