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Obama Care

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Old 06-24-2009, 03:01 PM   #121
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Re: Obama Care

I am going to address this from a completely different perspective. I believe that there is an equal necessity for both a private choice of health care and a Government provided universal healthcare.

Do we not have a universal public education system that provides a means for all people to be afforded the same educational opportunities for the masses? How many of us would actually be educated right now if only those that could afford to send their kids off to school to get an education were educated? Granted the Public school systems may not be the best, but at least they are something.

I believe that just like public education there must be some form of health care provided for every citizen. This health care should be run by the state and local governments just like public education is. If you can afford better, then by all means go buy yourself something better, but lets not deprive those of a necessity. Health care is a necessity and more so than education as far as I'm concerned.

If you truly believe that this is an extreme act of socialism then withdrawl your kids from their public schools.
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Old 06-24-2009, 03:02 PM   #122
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Re: Obama Care

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Originally Posted by BleedBurgundy View Post
I don't see that a gov't option as being "oppressed." Let's not get crazy here, no one is inviting Queen Elizabeth over the pond. Specifically regarding taxation without representation, no one is doing anything with that. IF our elected officials pass some form of this plan, then it's the will of the people, maybe not all of the people, but the majority. It's not something being forced upon the taxpayers by the divine will of Lord Obama.
We don't need anyone else's queen, we've got our King Obama to save us.

The English were content as well under King George, they did not revolt, but our country was founded on individualism and limited government. We are well past anything King George ever imposed on the colonists. He would, in fact, have loved the trappings of the Presidency.
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Old 06-24-2009, 03:06 PM   #123
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Re: Obama Care

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Originally Posted by Miller101 View Post
Can you blame the media? Can you blame them? I mean, they're the ones that actually have to ask the questions! And here the responses :confused: Forgive them if they're happy to FINALLY have a President that can speak in complete sentences! A president that can answer their questions. A president that won't throw them out of the room for asking the "wrong question". Its just.........Its weird man! I mean, remember the last Supreme Court nominee? The lottery chick? Can you imagine being in the media and having to go through that? Having to ask the questions? Particulary, why he appointed a Lottery chick? Just think about it from their perspective for a minute...............And give them a break man. Give us a break! We're still getting used to it.
What are you even talking about? Your point is we have a Prez who can "speak in complete sentences" and who "finally answers questions?" Please. He's not answering anything that wasn't scripted by Gibbs/Emanuel ahead of time, or that isn't on his teleprompter. He doesn't throw people out of the room for asking the "wrong questions," he just simply doesn't call on the reporters who he knows will ask the "wrong questions." And you want to talk about appointees? Really dude? Were you paying attention right after the inauguration when several of Obama's big nominees had to withdraw because they can't pay taxes properly?? Come on.

Did you even read the link I provided? He didn't answer anything yesterday. It's pretty obvious you're still enamored with Obama mania. Kind of like the way the media giggles and coos at every little quip that comes out of his mouth. It's so annoying.
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Old 06-24-2009, 03:09 PM   #124
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Re: Obama Care

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Originally Posted by Angry View Post
I am going to address this from a completely different perspective. I believe that there is an equal necessity for both a private choice of health care and a Government provided universal healthcare.

Do we not have a universal public education system that provides a means for all people to be afforded the same educational opportunities for the masses? How many of us would actually be educated right now if only those that could afford to send their kids off to school to get an education were educated? Granted the Public school systems may not be the best, but at least they are something.

I believe that just like public education there must be some form of health care provided for every citizen. This health care should be run by the state and local governments just like public education is. If you can afford better, then by all means go buy yourself something better, but lets not deprive those of a necessity. Health care is a necessity and more so than education as far as I'm concerned.

If you truly believe that this is an extreme act of socialism then withdrawl your kids from their public schools.
Good post. There should be choice, and both should be available. I'm sure the logistics of implementing this kind of system would be complex, but cut and dry, I agree with you here.
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Old 06-24-2009, 03:30 PM   #125
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Re: Obama Care

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Do we not have a universal public education system that provides a means for all people to be afforded the same educational opportunities for the masses?
No we do not. Public education is a state/local responsibility (as it should be). Approximately 6% of public school funding comes from the Fed.

Quote:
I believe that just like public education there must be some form of health care provided for every citizen. This health care should be run by the state and local governments just like public education is. If you can afford better, then by all means go buy yourself something better, but lets not deprive those of a necessity.
If a state wishes to provide free health care for its citizens, by all means go ahead. As long as that state is only taking a minimal percentage of financial support (under 6%) from the Fed to fund this and the program doesn't overlap with programs that already exist (Medicare/Medicaid). Also when the state goes belly up (CA) the Feds don't bail the state out unless the state reduces programs/services and pays the Fed back with interest in under 10 years.

This isn't about access to health care for everyone, there are plenty of avenues for people to get health care. This debate is about expanding the federal government's control into peoples lives. The last two times since 1900 that the left had supermajority control of the federal government we came away with social programs that are threatening to bankrupt the country (FDR - New Deal, L. Johnson - Great Society, Medicare/Medicaid). What Obama and the left in Congress are attempting to jam through (Univ. Health Care, Env Reforms, gov't takeover of GM, etc.) will push the government much closer to insolvency or the need to institute massive tax increases on all Americans. Everything has a price. Either monetarily or with freedoms lost.

I'm not willing to sacrifice my family's access to quality & timely health care or the financial independence of future generations to provide health care under a massive, ineffiecent government bureacracy to under 10% of the population. Why should I make those sacrifices when this 10% currently isn't willing to make the sacrifices necessary to provide health care to themselves or their families. Health care options are readily available in the private sector for those willing to work for them.

P.S. No one supporting Obama Care has provided an effective response to my point about CER, or are folks on the left OK with this?

http://www.thewarpath.net/parking-lo...tml#post564312 (Obama Care)
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Old 06-24-2009, 03:40 PM   #126
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Re: Obama Care

Quote:
Originally Posted by Angry View Post
I am going to address this from a completely different perspective. I believe that there is an equal necessity for both a private choice of health care and a Government provided universal healthcare.

Do we not have a universal public education system that provides a means for all people to be afforded the same educational opportunities for the masses? How many of us would actually be educated right now if only those that could afford to send their kids off to school to get an education were educated? Granted the Public school systems may not be the best, but at least they are something.

I believe that just like public education there must be some form of health care provided for every citizen. This health care should be run by the state and local governments just like public education is. If you can afford better, then by all means go buy yourself something better, but lets not deprive those of a necessity. Health care is a necessity and more so than education as far as I'm concerned.

If you truly believe that this is an extreme act of socialism then withdrawl your kids from their public schools.


I did.
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Old 06-24-2009, 03:59 PM   #127
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Re: Obama Care

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Originally Posted by Slingin Sammy 33 View Post

P.S. No one supporting Obama Care has provided an effective response to my point about CER, or are folks on the left OK with this?
Well, using Angry's above scenario, there's no need. If someone prefers an alternative regimen with a low chance of success, they are fully within their rights to pursue it, but at their own expense. How is this a problem? And Healthcare companies may not use the term CER, but they definitely make it very hard for anyone to pursue expensive treatments.
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Old 06-24-2009, 04:30 PM   #128
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Re: Obama Care

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Originally Posted by BleedBurgundy View Post
Well, using Angry's above scenario, there's no need. If someone prefers an alternative regimen with a low chance of success, they are fully within their rights to pursue it, but at their own expense. How is this a problem? And Healthcare companies may not use the term CER, but they definitely make it very hard for anyone to pursue expensive treatments.
It will be even tougher when the goverment has to ration care because of cost spiralling out of control.
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Old 06-24-2009, 04:34 PM   #129
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Re: Obama Care

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Ubuntu is not bulshit but a way of life. It is a philosophical answer if you understand it. You clearly don't understand it or have it. You are Ubuntuless!
As is DVOA, but I find most people prefer actual, real-world answers to questions.
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Old 06-24-2009, 04:39 PM   #130
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Re: Obama Care

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It will be even tougher when the goverment has to ration care because of cost spiralling out of control.
All the Obama Care has to do too fix this is raise the taxes on the rich some more.
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Old 06-24-2009, 04:53 PM   #131
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Re: Obama Care

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They took your money and stole it from your account and never invested it in your funds.
Are you adhering to the standards you have set forth with your initial argument?
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Old 06-24-2009, 04:55 PM   #132
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Re: Obama Care

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Insinuating that you are the expert right?
You're a free man, you can infer whatever you want.
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Old 06-24-2009, 04:57 PM   #133
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Re: Obama Care

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Originally Posted by BleedBurgundy View Post
Well, using Angry's above scenario, there's no need. If someone prefers an alternative regimen with a low chance of success, they are fully within their rights to pursue it, but at their own expense. How is this a problem? And Healthcare companies may not use the term CER, but they definitely make it very hard for anyone to pursue expensive treatments.
Obviously if someone wants to spend $$$ on a treatment that is expensive and won't work no insurer private or gov't will cover it. And yes, the CER concept is used in private healthcare, but not to deny coverage of normal procedures. If a procedure isn't covered "in-network" on a plan there is the option of going "out-of-network" to get the procedure but with less of a percentage covered. CER boards are used in many countries with socialized medicine to deny certain treatments or to deny treatment to individuals based on age or other factors. I don't want a gov't bureacrat between me and my doctor or other medical professional. When I'm a bit older, I don't want some GS-9 deciding whether I'm able to get an MRI, or heart valve replacement, or other treatment in a timely manner. I just had my gall bladder taken out, not a big deal but over $30K without insurance, cost me about $ 2K. Whenever I ate anything I was in severe pain for 3-4 hours. If I had to wait for this surgery for two weeks or 1 month, that would've been absurd.

Once a government run insurance program is in place with less benefits and no profit motive, it will drive the costs of private insurance up to be unaffordable or will bring service levels way down. Let's say a family of four with both parents working is bringing in $ 80K / yr. They go with the gov't program as the private insurance will likely go to over $ 1K per month. Their child needs a procedure, recommended by their doctor, which the government will not authorize because it doesn't meet the recommendations of the CER board. The procedure costs $ 40K....yeah I've got a problem with that. When currently that same family is paying about $ 300-500 per month for much better and timely coverage that will allow that procedure.

Again, our health care system isn't perfect, but it's the best in the world. Why do people come here from countries with socialized medicine to get procedures done? We need to fix some things but not put another massive government program in place. If you want to provide vouchers or tax credits for low income families that can't afford health insurance that can be discussed, but the Kennedy/Wrangle/Obama vision is flat out wrong and will be extremely destructive to our healthcare system and the federal budget.

EDIT: As a small business owner, if I'm forced to provide health care benefits to my employees (or pay a fine), who will wind up paying for it. My customers will, I'll have to raise prices. That could actually result in a reduction in monthly revenue if people don't want to pay higher prices and force me into the red. Or, I'll have to cut my staff down to an absolute minimum, that will be at least 2-3 jobs lost. Obama can count those in his jobs saved/created numbers. We're a small family owned restaurant, under 20 employees. Other restaurants like mine will be in the same position, some will close and you'll have more of the chain restaurants to visit (oh joy). But Obama is supposed to be for the little guys right?
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Last edited by Slingin Sammy 33; 06-24-2009 at 05:07 PM.
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Old 06-24-2009, 05:05 PM   #134
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Re: Obama Care

Maybe the reason health cost are lower in Canada is people are probably dying while waiting for surgery with an average wait of 18 WEEKS.
Wait times for surgery, medical treatments at all-time high: report
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Old 06-24-2009, 05:09 PM   #135
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Re: Obama Care

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It will be even tougher when the goverment has to ration care because of cost spiralling out of control.
How long after this do you think we start eating each other? Just curious...
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