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Arizona's New Immigration Law

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Old 04-29-2010, 06:31 PM   #91
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Re: Arizona's New Immigration Law

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Originally Posted by GMScud View Post
SS33 with the victory. Outstanding rebuttal.
LOL... Victory? Really? With a post that contains nuggets like "this law may not fix the budget now," "will there be police officers who handle enforcement wrong, certainly," "Can't, they have a fake ID that's good they'll get by," and my favorite "unknown?"

I protest!
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Old 04-29-2010, 06:41 PM   #92
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Re: Arizona's New Immigration Law

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Originally Posted by saden1 View Post
LOL... Victory? Really? With a post that contains nuggets like "this law may not fix the budget now," "will there be police officers who handle enforcement wrong, certainly," "Can't, they have a fake ID that's good they'll get by," and my favorite "unknown?"

I protest!
Haha. I was just trying to ruffle your feathers.
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Old 04-29-2010, 06:50 PM   #93
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Re: Arizona's New Immigration Law

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Originally Posted by Slingin Sammy 33 View Post
This point is a huge reach. The sanctuary cities are only liable in the following cases:

"implements a policy or practice that limits or restricts the enforcement of federal immigration laws to less than the full extent permitted by federal law. If there is a judicial finding that an entity has violated this section, the court shall order that the entity pay a civil penalty of not less than one thousand dollars and not more than five thousand dollars for each day that the policy has remained in effect after the filing of an action pursuant to this subsection."

Unless a city is willfully violating the AZ statutes (like the City of VB was not enforcing Fed law) they have nothing to worry about. And even if they are fined it's only after the filing of an action, it's not retroactive.
My point was who pays the civil penalty? Now criminal penalty would do the trick if AZ really wanted to forces cities/localities to act. Is there provisions in the law that cuts off funding for cities and localities? I can easily tell you that all cities and localities will have to do to get out of having to enforce the law is to say "we don't have enough resources."

Quote:
Originally Posted by Slingin Sammy 33 View Post
To start with, this:
A report issued by Maricopa County's Attorney General Andrew Thomas in October 2008 reveals the extent of Arizona's problem with crime committed by illegal immigrants.

In 2007, illegal immigrants accounted for:

10% of sex crimes convictions
11% of murders convictions
13% of stolen cars convictions
13% of aggravated assaults convictions
17% of those sentenced for violent crimes
19% of those sentenced for property crimes
20% of those sentenced for felony DUI
21% of crimes committed with weapons
34% of those sentenced for the manufacture, sale or transport of drugs
36% of those sentenced for kidnapping
44% of forgeries
50% of those sentenced for crimes related to "chop shops"
85% of false ID convictions
96% of smuggling convictions

[^^ dohhh ]

Illegal immigrants make up 19 percent of those convicted of crimes in Maricopa County and 21 percent of those in county jails.

Illegal immigrants make up an estimated 9 percent of the county's population.
You're telling me even Sheriff Joe has been ineffective? How is this law going to help these counties? Or is the plan that they simply go away? Even the criminals? The poor guy standing in front of Home Depot will dip-set but not sure about the guy at the chop-shop.

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Originally Posted by Slingin Sammy 33 View Post
See Post # 7. When the left can produce a number of "father's taking their kids for ice cream" that have been stopped and detained for no reason other than the color of their skin, I'll be glad to listen to your point. Until then this is political positioning, nothing more. I'm still waiting to see all the vast numbers of US citizens who have been wrongly prosecuted under the Patriot Act.

Will there be police officers who handle enforcement wrong, certainly. However I'm sure they will be in the vast minority. Every jurisdiction in AZ will be training it's officers on "by-the-book" enforcement techniques. I'm also sure police and localities in AZ will be very aware the national spotlight will be on.
The problem with the Patriot Act is spying on US Citizens...the problem with the Arizona law is racial profiling even if the law does not allow for profiling. These are legitimate objections of a freedom-liberty-america loving citizens. If you're brown looking best not jay-walk to the ice-cream truck with your daughter. BTW, does the new law provide for more training? Are there funding provisions in it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Slingin Sammy 33 View Post
This law may not fix the budget now, but it should help it from getting worse due to issues surrounding illegal immigration. It may have a minor effect in reducing social services, but I think it will actually reduce law enforcement/incarceration costs. If you're an illegal and you're in a state that is cracking down, chances are you take the path of least resistance and move on to another state where you can keep a lower profile or that has more lax enforcement.
You're a business man, what's the cost of incarceration vs issues surrounding illegal immigration Arizona? I guess we have to do the math to know the true...either that or wait a few years. Alas, Arizona doesn't have a prayer in court (BTW, if anyone wants to take that bet I'll be happy to).

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Originally Posted by Slingin Sammy 33 View Post
Can't, they have a fake ID that's good they'll get by.
If the company did its "due diligence", unknown.
The words "knows and recklessly disregards" are part of the sections addressing this.
What does due diligence mean? Check if their name comes up when you do a database search for it? Good luck proving "knows and recklessly disregards."

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Originally Posted by Slingin Sammy 33 View Post
Same way they would deal with any other lawsuit. Unless there's some "cease and desist" order, they just put it on the docket and get to it when they get to it.
It sounds easy.




Anywho, I know you guys really dislike these illegals but don't lose sight what is and isn't a responsible and effective policy.
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Old 04-29-2010, 06:51 PM   #94
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Re: Arizona's New Immigration Law

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Originally Posted by saden1 View Post
LOL... Victory? Really? With a post that contains nuggets like "this law may not fix the budget now," "will there be police officers who handle enforcement wrong, certainly," "Can't, they have a fake ID that's good they'll get by," and my favorite "unknown?"

I protest!
Check the replay, the shot was off before the buzzer!
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Old 04-29-2010, 08:35 PM   #95
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Re: Arizona's New Immigration Law

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Originally Posted by saden1 View Post
My point was who pays the civil penalty? Now criminal penalty would do the trick if AZ really wanted to forces cities/localities to act. Is there provisions in the law that cuts off funding for cities and localities? I can easily tell you that all cities and localities will have to do to get out of having to enforce the law is to say "we don't have enough resources."
Unless they don't have telephone/Internet service they'll have no excuse. There are also plenty of grants from the state of AZ and Fed that focus on security/emergency services. That won't fly.

If a judgement is levied against a locality you can be 100% sure the state of AZ will withhold funding in the next fiscal year to repay any fines levied. Without going back to look at where the penalties/fines go, I believe it's into a state fund to police gang and illegal immigration activity. Simple transfer of funds at the state level, and the locality would never even see the money.

Quote:
You're telling me even Sheriff Joe has been ineffective? How is this law going to help these counties? Or is the plan that they simply go away? Even the criminals? The poor guy standing in front of Home Depot will dip-set but not sure about the guy at the chop-shop.
If those numbers are fairly constant throughout the state and you can reduce them by even 30%, that's a huge net gain for the state and localities.

Quote:
The problem with the Patriot Act is spying on US Citizens...the problem with the Arizona law is racial profiling even if the law does not allow for profiling. These are legitimate objections of a freedom-liberty-america loving citizens. If you're brown looking best not jay-walk to the ice-cream truck with your daughter. BTW, does the new law provide for more training? Are there funding provisions in it?
Didn't see any provisions for training funds in the statute, however as I mentioned above there are many programs at state and Federal level that provide grants particularly for law enforcement activities. I'm also sure these localities will make the funding available for proper training (which I'm sure wouldn't be expensive anyway) to make sure they're not going to run afoul of the state or some left-wing legal group looking to score (ACLU, etc.)

Quote:
You're a business man, what's the cost of incarceration vs issues surrounding illegal immigration Arizona? I guess we have to do the math to know the true...either that or wait a few years. Alas, Arizona doesn't have a prayer in court (BTW, if anyone wants to take that bet I'll be happy to).
That will be the true barometer, anything else is speculation. However my speculation is that a reduction in crime and reduced stress on state/city services would amount to a net gain vs. short term incarceration pending deportation by ICE.

Quote:
What does due diligence mean? Check if their name comes up when you do a database search for it? Good luck proving "knows and recklessly disregards."
From a company standpoint, I would say as long as the company made sure to verify the required documents for employment (Standard I-9 stuff) and kept records of the documents on file, that would show due diligence IMO.

"Knows and recklessly disregards" is a gray area, but the intent is to target organizations or individuals who have a track record of sheltering/transporting illegals for profit, rather than an individual who gave someone some food and water that looked needy.

Quote:
Anywho, I know you guys really dislike these illegals but don't lose sight what is and isn't a responsible and effective policy.
Anywho, I have no dislike for people who are simply coming to America to try to work hard and make a better life for themselves and their families. Unfortunately we can't be all things to all people and public services come at a cost. We have serious issues here at home (struggling economy, national debt crisis, state budget issues, Medicare & SS insolvency looming, double digit unemployment in many places) and the illegal immigrant situation is only making things worse.

I do however have a major problem with Mexican nationals who profit from human smuggling, drug cartels, illegal thugs (primarily Mexican) who commit serious crimes including murder, and illegals that come to abuse/take advantage of the Federal and state social services. This law is designed to slow/stop this type of behavior. The person who sneaks into the U.S. illegally is still breaking U.S. law, but will likely not be affected by this law unless they are caught in some sort of employer-based sting, they break the law, or attempt to access a government service to which they aren't (and shouldn't be) entitled.

And at the end of the day, all these statutes do is re-enforce existing law.
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Last edited by Slingin Sammy 33; 04-29-2010 at 10:27 PM.
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Old 04-29-2010, 08:48 PM   #96
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Re: Arizona's New Immigration Law

wow, I would say I am surprised at people that are against this law, but I'm not. This is a quality law that should greatly help with the BILLIONS UPON BILLIONS we end up spending on illegal aliens.
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Old 04-29-2010, 10:24 PM   #97
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Re: Arizona's New Immigration Law

I don't have a problem w/ this law. It's out of control and the Arizona govt is trying to get a hold of the problem. It's sucks for the people that are here legally cause there is a chance that they're going to get harrrassed. But when you have 1,000 hispanics a day trying to border hop then strict laws need to be enforced. None of the people that make it here pay taxes and some commit crimes. Enough is enough.
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Old 04-30-2010, 07:06 AM   #98
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Re: Arizona's New Immigration Law

why are the laws not enforced by the federal govt?the citizens of this country are not in control anymore
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Old 04-30-2010, 12:55 PM   #99
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Re: Arizona's New Immigration Law

I'm so damn sick of the illegal immigration debate.

Just make it easier to become a citizen. Don't make people have to wait so long and jump through so many hoops that it drives people to cross the border illegally.

The people who are so up in arms about illegals always say they are fine with immigrants who want to come here for a better life. Fine. Then don't make it so difficult to become a citizen. Then there will be less illegal immigration.
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Old 04-30-2010, 01:10 PM   #100
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Re: Arizona's New Immigration Law

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I'm so damn sick of the illegal immigration debate.

Just make it easier to become a citizen. Don't make people have to wait so long and jump through so many hoops that it drives people to cross the border illegally.

The people who are so up in arms about illegals always say they are fine with immigrants who want to come here for a better life. Fine. Then don't make it so difficult to become a citizen. Then there will be less illegal immigration.
You and me...same page
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Old 04-30-2010, 01:42 PM   #101
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Re: Arizona's New Immigration Law

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Originally Posted by firstdown View Post
SS33 I think this stat is wrong.

85% of false ID convictions

and should probably read:


85% of false ID convictions are college students
and high school kids LOL
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Old 04-30-2010, 01:50 PM   #102
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Re: Arizona's New Immigration Law

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Originally Posted by firstdown View Post
So they can just walk in become a citizen then the next month file for food stamps, goverment housing, etc... There is a reason why you cannot just go to the local DMV and become a citizen. Our dept would tripple if we just let anyone become a citizen by just filling out a little paper work.
I agree, there's got to be control. A girl that used to work for me, good family, from Macedonia. They waited from the time their mother was pregnant with her until she was over 8 to be able to come here. They hold jobs and are productive to society. It would have been nice had they not had to wait so long, but they did. I think that we'll still have a ton of people entering along our borders no matter what they do. Who knows if it will really change things. Unemployment will be huge, there will still be plenty of jobs not being taxed, etc.
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Old 04-30-2010, 01:56 PM   #103
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Re: Arizona's New Immigration Law

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Originally Posted by jsarno View Post
wow, I would say I am surprised at people that are against this law, but I'm not. This is a quality law that should greatly help with the BILLIONS UPON BILLIONS we end up spending on illegal aliens.
I'm against it.
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Old 04-30-2010, 01:57 PM   #104
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Re: Arizona's New Immigration Law

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I agree, there's got to be control. A girl that used to work for me, good family, from Macedonia. They waited from the time their mother was pregnant with her until she was over 8 to be able to come here. They hold jobs and are productive to society. It would have been nice had they not had to wait so long, but they did. I think that we'll still have a ton of people entering along our borders no matter what they do. Who knows if it will really change things. Unemployment will be huge, there will still be plenty of jobs not being taxed, etc.
What if I told them to go back to Macedonia, and stop taking away jobs that Amercians can't get and need.
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Old 04-30-2010, 02:32 PM   #105
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Re: Arizona's New Immigration Law

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Originally Posted by firstdown View Post
So they can just walk in become a citizen then the next month file for food stamps, goverment housing, etc... There is a reason why you cannot just go to the local DMV and become a citizen. Our dept would tripple if we just let anyone become a citizen by just filling out a little paper work.
Well, according to the naysayers they already get the benefits just but without paying taxes, so it could possibly be a wash.
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