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Utah killer executed by firing squad

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Old 06-22-2010, 02:00 PM   #61
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Re: Utah killer executed by firing squad

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Originally Posted by Lotus View Post
No one here has argued for forgiving murderers. Keeping someone in jail for life in maximum security is not forgiveness.

As far as the Gandhi quote goes, what is means is that the "eye-for-an-eye" philosophy which you espouse only leads to a downward spiral of violence.
Not really. Murderer kills someone, gets convicted and sentenced to death, He is then killed. Spiral over.

And many of those sentenced to death have committed multiple murders, so eliminating them actually stops the spiral of violence.
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Old 06-22-2010, 02:35 PM   #62
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Re: Utah killer executed by firing squad

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Originally Posted by Lotus View Post
No one here has argued for forgiving murderers. Keeping someone in jail for life in maximum security is not forgiveness.

As far as the Gandhi quote goes, what is means is that the "eye-for-an-eye" philosophy which you espouse only leads to a downward spiral of violence.
I don't have a problem with "violence" (wrong term here) when it's designed to achieve something for the greater good.

Historical violence I'm in favor of:

- US Declaration of Independence and the subsequent Revolutionary War that resulted in the establishment of our nation in the name of freeing ourselves from England's oppressive rule

- Northern aggression that kept the United States together as the southern states seceded from the union in the 1800s.

- US retaliation for the bombing of Pearl Harbor and our subsequent response in the Pacific and against the Nazis.

- Beating up that punk ass bully who pantsed my little brother every day for 6 days in a row.

When it comes down to it, killing people who murdered others makes me feel good. I'd be one of the folks sitting in the front row cheering as he went out.

I don't believe in God or any higher power. I believe man is the ultimate rule of law, and as such ye shall reap what ye sow.
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Old 06-22-2010, 02:39 PM   #63
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Re: Utah killer executed by firing squad

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Originally Posted by Trample the Elderly View Post
No Keilbasa for you then!
Killing a human is not the same as killing a pig, although I'd be willing to bet that the highest forms of civilization in our universe don't kill anything at all. But, since we're not there yet I'll just keep enjoying my bacon.
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Old 06-22-2010, 02:44 PM   #64
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Re: Utah killer executed by firing squad

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Originally Posted by Slingin Sammy 33 View Post
Not really. Murderer kills someone, gets convicted and sentenced to death, He is then killed. Spiral over.

And many of those sentenced to death have committed multiple murders, so eliminating them actually stops the spiral of violence.
Even though the State kills murderers, more murderers will come. Spiral on.
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Old 06-22-2010, 02:55 PM   #65
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Re: Utah killer executed by firing squad

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Originally Posted by Mattyk View Post
Call it what you will but taking a human life is wrong. The law says so, no? But it's ok if the state does it? Sorry, can't buy that.
Can you buy it as an act of war? In defense of ones country?
Could you buy it in defense of your wife? Child? Or.....just plain wrong in all cases as you have stated?
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Old 06-22-2010, 03:32 PM   #66
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Re: Utah killer executed by firing squad

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You have been watching too much star track. I could feel more sorrow for a pig then I could for some of the people on death row.
I would feel sorry for Usain Bolt, and only Usain Bolt.
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Old 06-22-2010, 03:51 PM   #67
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Re: Utah killer executed by firing squad

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Originally Posted by GhettoDogAllStars View Post
Even though the State kills murderers, more murderers will come. Spiral on.
They'll come whether we kill them or not, therefore it's not a spiral.

Executing a killer does not make more people say you know what, I want to become a serial killer because I don't like that they executed that guy.
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Old 06-22-2010, 04:14 PM   #68
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Re: Utah killer executed by firing squad

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You have been watching too much star track. I could feel more sorrow for a pig then I could for some of the people on death row.
Yeah, but bacon is good. Pork chops are good.
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Old 06-22-2010, 04:24 PM   #69
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Re: Utah killer executed by firing squad

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They'll come whether we kill them or not, therefore it's not a spiral.

Executing a killer does not make more people say you know what, I want to become a serial killer because I don't like that they executed that guy.
You forget that condoning executions creates a culture of killing. Spiral on.
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Old 06-22-2010, 04:27 PM   #70
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Re: Utah killer executed by firing squad

I have mixed feelings on the death penalty filled with subtle complexities. Primarily, I oppose “revenge killing” because I agree with Lotus that killing, whether by an individual or the State, done to exact revenge on another individual ultimately creates more hate. Throughout history, societies have recognized the destructive nature of such killings and have moved away from them in order to advance. As I have said before, Hammurabi’s Code – “an eye for an eye” - was actually a limitation on revenge killing because prior to that it had been “your arm, your leg and your child for my wife’s eye”.

At the same time, I generally agree with Schneed that a society can decide to deny the right of life in the interest of justice. We as a society are entitled to and expect that our government to provide “justice”. Again, look through history at most revolutions and civil wars, populations will put up with tyrants/dictators, etc. but not injustice. The right to deny life is just another one of those balancing acts between individual liberty and group rights that exist when groups of people live in civil society.

The question for me is when does societal “justice” become societal “revenge”. I would suggest that often the death penalty, as it is applied in this country, is unjust as it seems that you may or may not get the death penalty depending on who you murder. Kill a hobo and get life in prison, kill a prominent pretty white girl, get the death penalty. This smacks more of revenge killing, i.e. we, as a society, valued the life of the pretty white girl more than the life of the hobo so we exact more “justice” from you for killing our favored individual. In such a case, it is not the denial of life that cries for justice – it is the denial of a specific life.

So, on one hand, I favor a fairly draconian application, you commit murder (i.e. you kill some one with “malice aforethought” or with such a “wanton disregard for others safety” that is the equivalent of malice).

On the other hand, I disagree with Schneed’s “cost of doing business” argument. To me, society’s justification for imposing the ultimate penalty is dependent upon the certainty that the criminal has committed the ultimate crime. Imposing the death penalty upon someone when we cannot be 100% sure the person is guilty borders on “wanton disregard for others safety” and undercuts the very argument for society’s “just” application of the death penalty (When an individual intentional kills someone and denies the victim of their right to life, it is wrong; BUT, if we intentionally kill someone who has not committed such a crime that’s just a big ole’ “oops” too bad so sad. To me that is a blatantly hypocritical stance - circle back to unjust and revenge killings).

Ultimately, and in my opinion, justice is something we as a society decide and for which we are all answerable. I generally agree with Schneed that we, as a society, can decide that it is “just” to deny an individual his right to life. At the same time, in the name of justice, this penalty is reserved for those we are 100% sure are guilty. However, if we are 100% sure they are guilty of murder, it does not matter who you murdered - you will die. Anything other than this strikes me as unjust and/or a form of revenge killing.
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Old 06-22-2010, 04:36 PM   #71
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Re: Utah killer executed by firing squad

As an aside...bravo for a rather civilized discussion on a serious hot button issue. Please no one be a jackass and ruin this.
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Old 06-22-2010, 04:38 PM   #72
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Re: Utah killer executed by firing squad

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Originally Posted by Lotus View Post
You forget that condoning executions creates a culture of killing. Spiral on.
Only if the execution is seen as unjust. Otherwise, and IMHO, a society's just killing is the ultimate condemnation of the murderer.

"Revenge shall be mine sayeth the Lord" but "Give unto Ceasar that which is Ceasar's". We have the right to govern and decide justice amongst ourselves.
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Old 06-22-2010, 04:46 PM   #73
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Re: Utah killer executed by firing squad

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Originally Posted by Lotus View Post
You forget that condoning executions creates a culture of killing. Spiral on.
I don't recall any murders related to, or in retaliation of, a court ordered death sentence.

On a scale of 0 to 10 for a culture of killing, with a 0 being raising/nurturing baby bunnies and 10 being an MS-13 member at age 11, the death sentence is about a .01 in terms of contributing to a "culture of killing".
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Old 06-22-2010, 05:01 PM   #74
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Re: Utah killer executed by firing squad

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Originally Posted by Lotus View Post
You forget that condoning executions creates a culture of killing. Spiral on.
When this thing goes down you might have to change your point of view. If not you'll be fodder.
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Old 06-22-2010, 05:13 PM   #75
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Re: Utah killer executed by firing squad

When what goes down?
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