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US Infects Guatemalans With Syphilis During 1940s Experiments

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Old 09-13-2011, 05:09 PM   #46
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Re: US Infects Guatemalans With Syphilis During 1940s Experiments

Put me down as a soccer hatter.
More boring than baseball.
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Old 09-13-2011, 05:59 PM   #47
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Re: US Infects Guatemalans With Syphilis During 1940s Experiments

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Soccer does have the best fights when the hate gets too strong.
Certainly true in the late '70's when I indulged but once the Police got all high-tech the air went out of organized crowd violence.

Now the games are locked down and crowd violence is sporadic at best.

I'd recommend you invent a time machine, go back to the '70's and visit Upton Park or The Den and enjoy a Millwall Vs. WHU game. Any 'rivalry' game would work, I can personally recommend this fixture though.

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Old 09-14-2011, 12:49 PM   #48
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Re: US Infects Guatemalans With Syphilis During 1940s Experiments

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Originally Posted by JoeRedskin View Post
Again, every country is made of humans and, as such, each may be "redeemed". The Germans have redeemed themselves in many ways and struggle with it still. This transformation occurred, however, after the US and its allies spent considerable blood and treasure destroying the prior militiristic society and then, through the Marshall Plan, spent massive amounts of money rebuilding our former enemy's economy. Russia's transformation came about after a long costly cold war in which the US opposed the dictataorial oligarchy of the Soviet Union. Without such constant opposition from the US, I would suggest that the Soviet Union and its disregard for individual human rights would still be a force for oppression in this world. See my notes on China below.


Okay. I don't disagree with that apologies should be just that apologies without qualification. I don't think the "addition and subtraction" is as rampant as you seem to think. I believe that, as a nation, we are more likely to admit to our faults than many others. Sometimes, to a fault. We will probably just have to agree to disagree on this one.



I can. Mainly because, but for the intervention of the US - Japan, Germany and Korea would not have been transformed. As for China, it's human rights violations are legion and the crimes it commits against its own citizens make a comparision to the US laughable.

- Germany's and Japan's society's didn't just wake up one morning and say - "Hey, let's tansform ourselves." Transformation occurred after their militiristic societies were beaten, their homelands occupied by the US, and their governments were remade during occupation along democratic lines by the US (in Japan's case) and the Western Allies (In Germany's case - specifically West Germany).

Korea? Which Korea? The one currently under a communist dictator or the one that the US and its Allies spent blood and treasure to preserve from North Korean aggression? But for US intervention and American lives spent, there would be no S. Korea to transform.

CHINA??? Are you seriously holding them up as a "transformed society"? Please:
China Human Rights | Amnesty International USA

China and Human Rights — Global Issues


Sure, as a society, the US has plenty of black marks in its history - slavery, our treatment of the native Americans, our colonization of the Philipines, our treatment of Japanese-Americans during WWII, etc. We also have much on the other side of the ledger - a civil war to end slavery, the civil rights movement, our opposition of tyrany in various forms throughout history, etc. They are all part of the US's "body of work".

Again, in history, admitting that we are seriously flawed in our practice, I challenge you to find any other country that has done more to promote, provide and protect individual human rights and the rule of law than the US.
I think it is equally important that we point out that the U.S. and it's allies were directly responsible for the rise of Hitler and the Nazis. Throughout their history the Germans were strong people but rarely militaristic society. They were defensive brutes at worst and philosophers at best. The west and it's imperialism was equally to blame for the rise of Japanese Militarism.

It's one thing to admit to your faults, it's another to justify your faults and only correct them after decades if ever. That is what this country does more often than not and I think that's slightly better than Chinese not admitting to its faults. Remember, the China transitioned from aristocracy to Communism fairly recently and in that process the communist pointed out the faults of the aristocracy. Communism is ultimately self-defeating the piper will be calling for the communists one of these days and the faults of the communist will similarly be pointed out. The same thing can be said about the Russians.

I was speaking of South Korea. You had people that wanted to be free and people who wanted communism. Like I said, communism is ultimately self-defeating but it's definitely nice to have altruistic help from the U.S. Hopefully that desire to help will be extend to the North Koreans one of these days.

China's human rights is just as laughable as that of the United States but you wouldn't know it talking to Americans. Human rights is somehow extended to torture and political imprisonment of dissenters in the U.S. but not to justified torture, opportunity and equality. How many people are in prison in United States again and how many innocent people are falsely imprisoned? How many egregious laws are there in the books simply because it serves a political purpose certain kinds of people?

Historically speaking we are comparing countries/societies who have existed for millenniums, lack diversity and were not found based on the ideals of equality, freedom and democracy with a country that has been round centuries, diverse, and found based on the aforementioned qualities. Obviously these countries can't adapt to change as rapidly as the U.S. but if we compare which countries have gone through a significant change for the better over their life span I don't believe the U.S. wins which is the point I was making.
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Old 09-14-2011, 01:19 PM   #49
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Re: US Infects Guatemalans With Syphilis During 1940s Experiments

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I think it is equally important that we point out that the U.S. and it's allies were directly responsible for the rise of Hitler and the Nazis. Throughout their history the Germans were strong people but rarely militaristic society. They were defensive brutes at worst and philosophers at best. The west and it's imperialism was equally to blame for the rise of Japanese Militarism.<SNIP>
Please post proof of those two statement, they are idiotic.

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Old 09-14-2011, 01:39 PM   #50
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Re: US Infects Guatemalans With Syphilis During 1940s Experiments

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Please post proof of those two statement, they are idiotic.

Huns
Teutonic Knights
Prussians (Not the cats, they're adorable!)
Cause and effect. One only needs to ask how and why they came to power and look at history.

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Nazi Germany arose in the wake of the national shame, embarrassment, anger and resentment resulting from the Treaty of Versailles (1919),[12] that dictated, to the vanquished Germans, responsibility for:
  • Germany's acceptance of and admission to sole responsibility for causing World War I[13]
  • The permanent loss of various territories and the demilitarization of other German territory[14]
  • The payment by Germany of heavy reparations, in money and in kind, such payments being justified in the Allied view by the War Guilt clause[15]
  • Unilateral German disarmament and severe military restrictions
Nazi Germany - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


The Huns were not Germanic people. You got me on the Teutonic Knights and the Old Prussians. They were definitely not defensive brutes. I was honestly equating modern date German to Prussia the Kingdom which was formed in 1701 not Old Prussia which was constituted the Holy Roman Empire and encompassed many people.

Last edited by saden1; 09-14-2011 at 01:58 PM.
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Old 09-14-2011, 01:55 PM   #51
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Re: US Infects Guatemalans With Syphilis During 1940s Experiments

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Cause and effect. One only needs to ask how and why they came to power and look at history.
That's not 'posting proof' it's hiding behind an ambiguous statement, please try again.

I'll foreshadow my counter to what I think you're going to post by stating that when the police set up a bait car the car thief is still a car thief.

Same goes for the Taliban.
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Old 09-14-2011, 01:58 PM   #52
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Re: US Infects Guatemalans With Syphilis During 1940s Experiments

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That's not 'posting proof' it's hiding behind an ambiguous statement, please try again.

I'll foreshadow my counter to what I think you're going to post by stating that when the police set up a bait car the car thief is still a car thief.

Same goes for the Taliban.
I updated my post.
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Old 09-14-2011, 02:37 PM   #53
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Re: US Infects Guatemalans With Syphilis During 1940s Experiments

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I updated my post.
In my opinion (and I'm from 'just across the road' from them, also lived there for four years) their violent intentions early on were largely held in check by a) Very violent and expansionist neighbors who had more naval power/opportunity and, b) the church.

The whole of Europe has a lot to be held responsible for, also a lot to be proud of in an odd way.

As for The Great War being a precursor to WWII, sure, that's true, but look what happens when you're nice to a vanquished enemy. They were still guilty of perpetrating the aggression against the rest of Europe because initially other European countries decided to allow them to posture. Bait Car analogy.
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Old 09-14-2011, 02:39 PM   #54
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Re: US Infects Guatemalans With Syphilis During 1940s Experiments

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I think it is equally important that we point out that the U.S. and it's allies were directly responsible for the rise of Hitler and the Nazis. Throughout their history the Germans were strong people but rarely militaristic society. They were defensive brutes at worst and philosophers at best. The west and it's imperialism was equally to blame for the rise of Japanese Militarism.

It's one thing to admit to your faults, it's another to justify your faults and only correct them after decades if ever. That is what this country does more often than not and I think that's slightly better than Chinese not admitting to its faults. Remember, the China transitioned from aristocracy to Communism fairly recently and in that process the communist pointed out the faults of the aristocracy. Communism is ultimately self-defeating the piper will be calling for the communists one of these days and the faults of the communist will similarly be pointed out. The same thing can be said about the Russians.

I was speaking of South Korea. You had people that wanted to be free and people who wanted communism. Like I said, communism is ultimately self-defeating but it's definitely nice to have altruistic help from the U.S. Hopefully that desire to help will be extend to the North Koreans one of these days.

China's human rights is just as laughable as that of the United States but you wouldn't know it talking to Americans. Human rights is somehow extended to torture and political imprisonment of dissenters in the U.S. but not to justified torture, opportunity and equality. How many people are in prison in United States again and how many innocent people are falsely imprisoned? How many egregious laws are there in the books simply because it serves a political purpose certain kinds of people?
The modern nation of Germany was founded based on the militarism of the Prussian aristocracratic society through political manipulation and realpolitick of Bismark. (BTW - In 1848(?), the Prussian King rejected a constitutional monarchy - preferring instead his autocratic principles). It took Bismark 3 separate wars for Prussia and it militaristic aristocracy to confirm its hegemony over Germany. -- The US and its allies "are responsible for the rise of Hitler"? Well, maybe b/c of the punitive nature of the Versaille Treaty, or b/c we failed to intervene when he violated that treaty. As I recall, however, Hitler was appointed Chancellor in '33 and subsequently granted dictatorial powers by a 2/3's vote of the Reichstag.

As to China, I cited two independent sources - Amnesty International and the Global Source both of which could hardly be labled "pro-American" and both blasted China's civil rights. Find me something, anything, that indicates America is considered to be a worse human rights violator than China in any objective sense or that, as a whole, America and China are comprable when it comes to human rights violations.

You asserted that the Chinese have changed since Mao, the cites I indicated contradict that. Again, provide something that shows, since Mao, the Chinese have made the same or better strides in expanding basic human rights to its citizens that the US has since WWII. I would suggest that a Uighur or Tibetan in China now is in a similar or worse position than he was 50 years ago. The same simply cannot be said about minorities and women in America.

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Originally Posted by saden1 View Post
Historically speaking we are comparing countries/societies who have existed for millenniums, lack diversity and were not found based on the ideals of equality, freedom and democracy with a country that has been round centuries, diverse, and found based on the aforementioned qualities. Obviously these countries can't adapt to change as rapidly as the U.S. but if we compare which countries have gone through a significant change for the better over their life span I don't believe the U.S. wins which is the point I was making.
These countries can't adapt? So our adaptability is a point against us somehow?? To be clear - We didn't start out diverse. We started out as a country of white Englishmen with power resting firmly in the hands of the landed and/or monied aristocracy. The fact that we can and have adapted to expand and include a multitude of different cultures and shared power with them is kind of my point. Following our founding documents is what allowed us to expand and adapt the sharing of power. That was my original point in comparing the actions to the US took against the Guatamalans as opposed to the atrocities committed by the Nazis - One government's action was counter to its founding principles, the other government's actions were consistent with its governing principles.

In the 250 years of the US's existence, we have expanded the vote from landed white men only to every citizen over the age of 18. We have changed from a slave holding country to one which rejects slavery, in any form, as acceptable. The freedoms guaranteed by the Bill of Rights have been expanded such that actions which would have been considered treasonable even 50 years ago (burning the flag, being a member of the Communist party as two examples) are now permitted and even protected. The rights of accused have been aggressively expanded so that the procedures police and prosecutors need follow would boggle the mind of Americans even 100 years ago.

Do we "win" the title of "World's Historically Most Transformed For The Better Society"? I don't know maybe, maybe not. What is clear to me is that, though we often fail, it is the US's goal, as demonstrated by our founding documents, to constantly strive to be the winner of that title. Again, that was my original point.

You think other countries "have gone through a significant change for the better over their life span" than the US? Okay. I don't see any proof of it but, if that's what you choose to believe, okay. Good for you. I stand by my original statement that no country in history has done more than the US (warts and all) - from its inception to its current status - to promote, provide and protect human rights within and without its borders.
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Old 09-14-2011, 02:56 PM   #55
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Re: US Infects Guatemalans With Syphilis During 1940s Experiments

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Cause and effect. One only needs to ask how and why they came to power and look at history. [Citing the Versaille Treaty]
If all you got on the US and the Nazis rise to power is the Versailles Treaty, you should look for something else. The US Senate rejected the Treaty (mainly due to a block of isolationists opposing the US's inclusion in the League of Nations) and a separate peace was entered into with Germany in 1921.

Further, Wilson, on behalf of the US, vehemently opposed the "War Guilt" clause and the reparations. Instead, Wilson advocated for a treaty based on his 14 Points.
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Old 09-14-2011, 04:38 PM   #56
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Re: US Infects Guatemalans With Syphilis During 1940s Experiments

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The west and it's imperialism was equally to blame for the rise of Japanese Militarism.
Sorry, I almost forgot - I call serious BS on this one. Japanese militarism was, in fact, organic to its society and culture. Under Japanese feudalism, the Shogunite and its enforced isolationism, Japan bred a culture of militarism through the bushido ethic. While the US may have exposed the Japanese to western technology, the Japanese's choice of how they used that technology was entirely their own and absolutely consistent with their prior cultural history. Further, dehumanizing other cultures was well founded in Japanese history. The Japanese treatment of the Ainu was certainly equal to or worse our treatment of Native Americans (BTW - It was only in 2008 that the Japanese repealed the laws requiring Ainu to learn Japanese and recognized them as an indigenous people).

Japanese culture, well before any exposure to the West, created a society both capable and willing to perform atrocities on a huge scale.

EDIT: On behalf of the US, I would like to apologize to the victims of Japanese militarism - including the Korean People, the victicms of the Rape of Nanking, and Comfort Women - for showing the Japanese how guns work.
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Old 09-14-2011, 05:11 PM   #57
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Re: US Infects Guatemalans With Syphilis During 1940s Experiments

Geez Joe, Why bring facts and credible sources to this discussion.
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Old 09-14-2011, 05:33 PM   #58
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Re: US Infects Guatemalans With Syphilis During 1940s Experiments

All joking aside, is this something now taught in schools? WTF is up with 'Victim mentality' and 'Blame the victim', FFS!

Next you'll be telling me that we have jihadists because we didn't just allow islam to be the one true religion as allah advised mohammed.
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Old 09-14-2011, 07:20 PM   #59
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Re: US Infects Guatemalans With Syphilis During 1940s Experiments

JoeRedskins, you write a lot but I don't think you grasped anything that I wrote so let me break it down for you:
  1. Inaction in the face of punitive action is equally as bad as carrying out the punitive action itself. Negligence is not a form of defense.
  2. I suppose the Prussians were brutes in their consolidation of power within their own region. I was talking about external desire for conquest but if we are going to talk about the internal rift and struggle to consolidate power and land, let's talk about it. How does the United States compare? Favorably I assume?
  3. If you want a report on the sate of the Unite State's Human Rights I would suggest your read the country's Amnesty International Human Rights Report.
  4. I never said our ability to adapt is a knock, what I stated was "comparatively you can't tell me we have had a more significant change over time for the better." They might move slow but they do change for the better.
  5. China is still Mao's China? Wow, Mao is attributed with causing the deaths of 40 to 70 million people during his reign. I'm pretty sure that's not currently the case.
  6. I don't support the the invasion of Tibet by the Chinese under the guise of human rights abuses as much as I don't support the invasion of American forces of Iraq under the guise of liberation/freedom.
  7. China has universal suffrage which is a significant development for a country not founded on democratic ideals. You can short change them all you want but they have it and they have come quite a long way. Hopefully they will upgrade from a one party system to a two party system in the near future.
  8. While they had internal power struggles the Japanese never ventured outside their borders before the West came into the picture. My point is and was they saw all these invading armies around them and thought to themselves they should probably united raise an army and with an army comes tyranny. I am not familiar with the Ainu people, I will have to read about them up.
  9. I do believe we provoked the Japanese into entering WWII. If you keep throwing spit balls at me I would certainly hurl a rock at your face.

p.s. No one asked or wants you to apologize, only that you understand circumstances and that there can be unintended consequences of bot action and inaction.

Last edited by saden1; 09-14-2011 at 07:23 PM.
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Old 09-15-2011, 10:01 PM   #60
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Re: US Infects Guatemalans With Syphilis During 1940s Experiments

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...let me break it down for you.
Saden, what year did you graduate from Cal Berkeley?

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