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Updated Title: World Revolution 2011

Debating with the enemy


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Old 03-29-2011, 12:12 PM   #286
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Re: Updated Title: World Revolution 2011

So why Lybia and not the other places around the world? Only real answer is oil. Now we are talking about arming the rebals and we don't even really know who they are.
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Old 03-30-2011, 12:41 PM   #287
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Re: Updated Title: World Revolution 2011

Well it seem we are learing who these rebals are. AL-QAEDA and think Obama is thinking about arming them.
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Old 03-30-2011, 04:23 PM   #288
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Re: Updated Title: World Revolution 2011

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Well it seem we are learing who these rebals are. AL-QAEDA and think Obama is thinking about arming them.
Where'd you hear that from? No government official has confirmed that. Secretary Clinton, Susan Rice, Joint Chiefs - none of them, to my knowledge, have floated the idea that the rebels are in cahoots with al-Qaeda. And while it's reasonable to believe that elements of al-Qaeda are in the mix, I don't think this movement in Libya was engineered or led by them. Since when have al-Qaeda used protesting as a means to get their point across and greated an American pilot with open arms? And with my very limited knowledge of the situation, I'm sure they aren't just sittng around waiting for America to give them weapons, they've been very capable of acquiring them in the past.

The truth is these organic uprisings are stealing al-Qaeda's thunder and sending a strong message that regimes can be overthrown through other means besides violence and terrorism.
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Old 03-30-2011, 07:29 PM   #289
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Re: Updated Title: World Revolution 2011

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Well it seem we are learing who these rebals are. AL-QAEDA and think Obama is thinking about arming them.
Osama bin Laden was allegedly among the recipients of U.S. arms,[15] although this view has been disputed.[16][17][18][19]
Under Reagan, U.S. support for the mujahideen evolved into an official U.S. foreign policy, known as the Reagan Doctrine, which included U.S. support for anti-Soviet movements in Afghanistan, Angola, Nicaragua, and elsewhere.[20] Ronald Reagan praised mujahideen as "freedom fighters".
first, what do you think about this?
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Old 03-30-2011, 09:16 PM   #290
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Re: Updated Title: World Revolution 2011

It may of just been an oversight, put you omitted the preceding wiki-paragraph.
The mujahideen were significantly financed and armed (and are alleged to have been trained) by the United States Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) during the administrations of Carter and Reagan, and also by Saudi Arabia, Pakistan under Zia-ul-Haq, Iran, the People's Republic of China and several Western European countries. Pakistan's secret service, Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI), was used as an intermediary for most of these activities to disguise the sources of support for the resistance.
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Old 03-30-2011, 10:47 PM   #291
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Re: Updated Title: World Revolution 2011

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Osama bin Laden was allegedly among the recipients of U.S. arms,[15] although this view has been disputed.[16][17][18][19]
Under Reagan, U.S. support for the mujahideen evolved into an official U.S. foreign policy, known as the Reagan Doctrine, which included U.S. support for anti-Soviet movements in Afghanistan, Angola, Nicaragua, and elsewhere.[20] Ronald Reagan praised mujahideen as "freedom fighters".
first, what do you think about this?
I really don't know enough about these to have an opinion. What does it have to do with whats going on today? What I do know is that we are at war with Al Qaeda and why the f*ck would we even think of providing them arms. Now we hear that the CIA is on the ground and this has been leaked to the press probably increasing their risk. So much for the no boots on the ground lie,
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Old 03-30-2011, 11:13 PM   #292
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Re: Updated Title: World Revolution 2011

There was no doubt in my mind that covert ops were going on behind the scenes long before any nation flew the first sortie. It's simply not smart, regardless of your idealogical opinion, to engage your opponent without reliable intelligence on the ground. There are likely tarristsis (GWB's word not mine)fighting with the Libyian resistance, but after the past few years you must realize they also wear the same uniform I do.
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Old 03-31-2011, 12:29 AM   #293
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Re: Updated Title: World Revolution 2011

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Originally Posted by dmek25 View Post
Osama bin Laden was allegedly among the recipients of U.S. arms,[15] although this view has been disputed.[16][17][18][19]
Under Reagan, U.S. support for the mujahideen evolved into an official U.S. foreign policy, known as the Reagan Doctrine, which included U.S. support for anti-Soviet movements in Afghanistan, Angola, Nicaragua, and elsewhere.[20] Ronald Reagan praised mujahideen as "freedom fighters".
first, what do you think about this?
Reagan was out to destroy the USSR, my enemy's enemy is my friend, is simply what was at play there. Reagan's support of the mujahideen in Afghanistan brought tremendous "bang for the buck" in terms of hurting the USSR financially and militarily, with minimal risk to US military personnel (not including covert ops folks of course).

I'm not sure what the correlation with Reagan's actions vs. Obama's actions is. Outside of taking out Gaddafi, which as I mentioned before could be fairly easily accomplished with an "off-course" cruise missle or a covert op assist to the rebels, what is our goal here? What are we accomplishing in the sense of a Mid East or global strategy? I think arming the rebels sends a very bad message and is the wrong thing to do. Again as I mentioned before, we need to get to the background of this quickly and let NATO, the Arab League, the French or Brits take point on this one.

If this was Iran and we're talking about arming rebels against that regime, maybe there's an end-game that benefits US interests a great deal and it's worth the risk (but I certainly don't do it publicly). In Libya, I don't see it.
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Old 03-31-2011, 12:36 PM   #294
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Re: Updated Title: World Revolution 2011

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Where'd you hear that from? No government official has confirmed that. Secretary Clinton, Susan Rice, Joint Chiefs - none of them, to my knowledge, have floated the idea that the rebels are in cahoots with al-Qaeda. And while it's reasonable to believe that elements of al-Qaeda are in the mix, I don't think this movement in Libya was engineered or led by them. Since when have al-Qaeda used protesting as a means to get their point across and greated an American pilot with open arms? And with my very limited knowledge of the situation, I'm sure they aren't just sittng around waiting for America to give them weapons, they've been very capable of acquiring them in the past.

The truth is these organic uprisings are stealing al-Qaeda's thunder and sending a strong message that regimes can be overthrown through other means besides violence and terrorism.
Libyan opposition includes a small number of al-Qaeda fighters, U.S. officials say - The Washington Post

And can anyone explain why the US would confirm or leak that we did have CIA agents in Libya? Would that not put them in more danger?
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Old 03-31-2011, 01:13 PM   #295
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Re: Updated Title: World Revolution 2011

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Libyan opposition includes a small number of al-Qaeda fighters, U.S. officials say - The Washington Post

And can anyone explain why the US would confirm or leak that we did have CIA agents in Libya? Would that not put them in more danger?
agree, that about as idoitic as a Vice President authorizing a leak of a CIA agent. Very stoopid, just doesnt make sense
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Old 04-01-2011, 05:25 PM   #296
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Re: Updated Title: World Revolution 2011

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Originally Posted by Slingin Sammy 33 View Post
Reagan was out to destroy the USSR, my enemy's enemy is my friend, is simply what was at play there. Reagan's support of the mujahideen in Afghanistan brought tremendous "bang for the buck" in terms of hurting the USSR financially and militarily, with minimal risk to US military personnel (not including covert ops folks of course).

I'm not sure what the correlation with Reagan's actions vs. Obama's actions is. Outside of taking out Gaddafi, which as I mentioned before could be fairly easily accomplished with an "off-course" cruise missle or a covert op assist to the rebels, what is our goal here? What are we accomplishing in the sense of a Mid East or global strategy? I think arming the rebels sends a very bad message and is the wrong thing to do. Again as I mentioned before, we need to get to the background of this quickly and let NATO, the Arab League, the French or Brits take point on this one.

If this was Iran and we're talking about arming rebels against that regime, maybe there's an end-game that benefits US interests a great deal and it's worth the risk (but I certainly don't do it publicly). In Libya, I don't see it.
Looks like we are taking more of a back seat role. I like.

In addition to pulling combat aircraft out of Libya mission, Navy missiles also put on standby | StarTribune.com
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Old 04-01-2011, 05:28 PM   #297
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Re: Updated Title: World Revolution 2011

I don't think leaking the CIA being on the ground is a bad thing. I assume it's more of message and warning to Ghadaffy's inner circle more than a direct threat to him.

We have to take this guy out one way or another.
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Old 04-01-2011, 06:47 PM   #298
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Re: Updated Title: World Revolution 2011

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Agree.
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Old 04-04-2011, 01:50 PM   #299
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Re: Updated Title: World Revolution 2011

So will we now go into Yemen? I mean if we have now set the standard what will it do if we let the Yemen government kills its people like they are now doing? If we allow it to go on will we not make enemies of the people we decide to to defend?

Troops open fire on Yemeni protesters - World news - Mideast/N. Africa - msnbc.com
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Old 04-04-2011, 03:25 PM   #300
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Re: Updated Title: World Revolution 2011

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So will we now go into Yemen? I mean if we have now set the standard what will it do if we let the Yemen government kills its people like they are now doing? If we allow it to go on will we not make enemies of the people we decide to to defend?

Troops open fire on Yemeni protesters - World news - Mideast/N. Africa - msnbc.com
Did you happen to see the President's speech about this very thing? If you have the time check it out. I would say let the president explain his position and not the pundits who are putting words in his mouth. He's pretty clear about it.

Anyway, Yemen is a somewhat different situation.
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