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Updated Title: World Revolution 2011

Debating with the enemy


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Old 03-01-2011, 02:47 PM   #106
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Re: Updated Title: World Revolution 2011

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Originally Posted by firstdown View Post
Wouldn't that be considered nation building?
How is that nation building? Not even close.

What we're doing in Afghanistan is nation building.
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Old 03-01-2011, 05:47 PM   #107
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Re: Updated Title: World Revolution 2011

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Originally Posted by Lotus View Post
Please update your information:

1) I agree that your were responding to Ruh's claim about oil. I did read your post. But you went on to talk about WMD's, which was mistaken. I responded to that.

2) There were UN weapons inspectors in Iraq until the bombs started dropping in March 2003. Bush, however, was too impatient to let them do their work.
Weapons Inspectors Leave Iraq - CBS News

Also, your view fails to take into account that if we wanted to stop the spread of WMD's, Iran and N.Korea were obviously better targets.

3) The claim about the purchase of uranium from Niger proved to be hoaxed. CIA director George Tenet told the White House that the documents were false yet the White House continued to make the claim. Joe Wilson revealed the hoax. Then, in retaliation, a senior Bush administration official "outed" his wife Valerie Plame as a CIA agent, thus effectively ending her career in the field.
Niger uranium forgeries - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

All of this is why I said that you were the victim of "obsolete propaganda."
the statement I made about WMD's being the reason we went into Iraq is NOT a mistake.. now they may not have been there but me saying that is why we went is correct.

there were 56 total people (according to CBS) in the entourage of people.. thats all?? in a country the size of Iraq? Thats acceptable to you? haha uh.... okay... when there were almost a thousand upto 1998... do you see a drastic difference in numbers? Also Saddam Hussein wouldnt allow them to move freely... they had to continually inspect the same areas that Saddam would allow them to inspect.. thats not inspecting so you can believe what you like.

The whole thing about the report of purchase of yellowcake from Niger wouldnt have even been an issue if good ole Billy Boy could kept his little Willy in his pants and Monica out from under his desk...
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Old 03-01-2011, 06:41 PM   #108
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Re: Updated Title: World Revolution 2011

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Originally Posted by Tiggwin View Post
the statement I made about WMD's being the reason we went into Iraq is NOT a mistake.. now they may not have been there but me saying that is why we went is correct.

there were 56 total people (according to CBS) in the entourage of people.. thats all?? in a country the size of Iraq? Thats acceptable to you? haha uh.... okay... when there were almost a thousand upto 1998... do you see a drastic difference in numbers? Also Saddam Hussein wouldnt allow them to move freely... they had to continually inspect the same areas that Saddam would allow them to inspect.. thats not inspecting so you can believe what you like.

The whole thing about the report of purchase of yellowcake from Niger wouldnt have even been an issue if good ole Billy Boy could kept his little Willy in his pants and Monica out from under his desk...
So the Bush administration forged documents to support a war and thus lied to the American people and you blame...Clinton.

This is precisely why I am a political independent. People who identify with parties often end up excusing their side when their side does something terrible. This is true for Republicans and Democrats alike.
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Old 03-01-2011, 06:55 PM   #109
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Re: Updated Title: World Revolution 2011

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Originally Posted by firstdown View Post
The thing that seems to get lost is that UN said he had them, Bill Clinton said he had them, most every major power said he had them, and that was even before Powell went before the UN. Bill Clinton and his wife even agreed that we needed to go after Saddam. Not sure why Saddam tried to fool the world but it work and now he is dead. I'm not trying to make the point for going to war I'm just saying this was something that the world thought way before Bush tried to convince anyone of WMDs.
.

1. The UN never said he had WMDs.
2. Clinton said they had a WMD program and we couldn't allow him to get them.
3. The Bush administration said he had them and must be taken out.

Notice how North Korea had WMDs too and they weren't taken out? People who have WMDs are harder to take out because they have real WMDs and will use them if war is at their door step. Sadam was scum and needed to be taken out, how it was done was just as scummy.

War = Profit.
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Old 03-02-2011, 01:14 PM   #110
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Re: Updated Title: World Revolution 2011

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Originally Posted by firstdown View Post
Well if we are fighting back the leaders so others who support someone else can take over I'd say thats nation building. Interfering in any way is really nation building. I did not say if it was right or wrong.
Well nation buidling, to simplify it a bit, is when the U.S. commits considerable assets to rebuiling a nation's infrastructure, it's government, and there's a long-term military occupation and strategy in place.

The goal is to promote and spread democracy in said region and help it become politically and economically stable. It's what we did in Iraq and it's what we're sort of doing in Afghanistan, though the White House won't say so.

The situation in Libya is completely different on so many levels, namely we aren't at war with Libya and Libya poses no real threat to U.S. borders. This is turning into an international human rights crisis that has a significant economic impact on the price of oil. At least short term.

Last edited by 12thMan; 03-02-2011 at 01:52 PM.
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Old 03-02-2011, 01:56 PM   #111
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Re: Updated Title: World Revolution 2011

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So the Bush administration forged documents to support a war and thus lied to the American people and you blame...Clinton.

This is precisely why I am a political independent. People who identify with parties often end up excusing their side when their side does something terrible. This is true for Republicans and Democrats alike.
YES!!! WITH A RESOUNDING YES!! I blame Clinton. I guess you dont remember the late 90's (1998 to be exact) when all the scandal sh*t was going on with Clinton, Saddam pushed out ALL of the weapons inspectors. He may have eventually allowed 56 people made up of weapons inspectors and support staff but that was a drop in the bucket compared to what was in Iraq prior to 1998. During the whole Monica Lewinski scandal Clinton should have manned up... admitted he had sexual relations with that woman... and gone about the business of enforcing the UN sanctions... Also as Firstdown has pointed out.. if you watch all of the videos of Dem's (when they were in power that is) talking about how Saddam needed to be stopped yada yada yada... its sickening to see the lies coming out of their mouths in the aftermath of the invasion. That whole Bush Bashing Campaign was nothing more than Dem's trying to take power back in the White House.. and they did it on the back of our Soldiers. I am a former Marine.. I was in the First Persian Gulf War.. there are many subjects (Lotus) that we can debate on and you catch me in the wrong.. but this aint one of them. Also there is sooooo much shit that you dont either know or pay attention to that are facts. ie after we went into Afghanistan and broke up the Taliban and the Al Qaeda training camps there.. were do you think they moved?? Yep Dats Rite!! to Nothern Iraq. So with the "FACT" that Al Qaeda was in Iraq.. (ie Al Qaeda in Iraq) and there was intelligence that ALL of the World believed to be true in that Saddam had WMD's doesnt matter to you does it?

You call yourself and independent... I bet youre an independent Socialist... I am an Independent as well... I am an Independent Conservative. I used to call myself Republican until I started to see the big spending mentality that they have as well. Call me a Teabagger... YEP sure love my TEA!!
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Old 03-02-2011, 02:37 PM   #112
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Re: Updated Title: World Revolution 2011

You guys ever find yourself out and suddenly you really need to find a restroom? So you go to the nearest restaurant and there's a sign that says "Restrooms for Customers Only"

So then you're like, well damn what do I do. Do I just move on and try to find the next place, or do I buy some fries for a dollar and then use the bathroom?

So I'm not saying the Parking Lot is a bathroom but this is a Redskins fan site, first and foremost. The Locker Room is where we serve our meals and the reason people are joining, to consume Redskins info. Someone who only posts in the Parking Lot, and never actually talks about the Redskins-on a Redskins fan site...it's kind of like walking into our restaurant just to use our bathroom.
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Old 03-02-2011, 02:57 PM   #113
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Re: Updated Title: World Revolution 2011

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Originally Posted by Tiggwin View Post
YES!!! WITH A RESOUNDING YES!! I blame Clinton. I guess you dont remember the late 90's (1998 to be exact) when all the scandal sh*t was going on with Clinton, Saddam pushed out ALL of the weapons inspectors. He may have eventually allowed 56 people made up of weapons inspectors and support staff but that was a drop in the bucket compared to what was in Iraq prior to 1998. During the whole Monica Lewinski scandal Clinton should have manned up... admitted he had sexual relations with that woman... and gone about the business of enforcing the UN sanctions... Also as Firstdown has pointed out.. if you watch all of the videos of Dem's (when they were in power that is) talking about how Saddam needed to be stopped yada yada yada... its sickening to see the lies coming out of their mouths in the aftermath of the invasion. That whole Bush Bashing Campaign was nothing more than Dem's trying to take power back in the White House.. and they did it on the back of our Soldiers. I am a former Marine.. I was in the First Persian Gulf War.. there are many subjects (Lotus) that we can debate on and you catch me in the wrong.. but this aint one of them. Also there is sooooo much shit that you dont either know or pay attention to that are facts. ie after we went into Afghanistan and broke up the Taliban and the Al Qaeda training camps there.. were do you think they moved?? Yep Dats Rite!! to Nothern Iraq. So with the "FACT" that Al Qaeda was in Iraq.. (ie Al Qaeda in Iraq) and there was intelligence that ALL of the World believed to be true in that Saddam had WMD's doesnt matter to you does it?

You call yourself and independent... I bet youre an independent Socialist... I am an Independent as well... I am an Independent Conservative. I used to call myself Republican until I started to see the big spending mentality that they have as well. Call me a Teabagger... YEP sure love my TEA!!
I was in the Gulf War, too. And before you start yelling Semper-Fi at me, my ship hit an Iraq contact mine that ripped the hull wide open.

But I'm not sure what my Naval experience, your career as a Marine, Monica Lewinsky or Bill Clinton have to do with George W. Bush invading Iraq under false pretenses. I think it's one thing to say previous administrations were suspicious of Saddam and that he posed a national security threat, it's another to invade and occupy a sovereign nation without provocation or legitimate and verifiable intelligence. It's simply not justifiable. There's no question we strengthened, emboldened, and multiplied terrorists groups around the globe as a result. And in the process damaged our standing with the Arab and Muslim world.

But hey, I'm an independent liberal so what do I know.
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Old 03-02-2011, 03:23 PM   #114
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Re: Updated Title: World Revolution 2011

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Originally Posted by Tiggwin View Post
YES!!! WITH A RESOUNDING YES!! I blame Clinton. I guess you dont remember the late 90's (1998 to be exact) when all the scandal sh*t was going on with Clinton, Saddam pushed out ALL of the weapons inspectors. He may have eventually allowed 56 people made up of weapons inspectors and support staff but that was a drop in the bucket compared to what was in Iraq prior to 1998. During the whole Monica Lewinski scandal Clinton should have manned up... admitted he had sexual relations with that woman... and gone about the business of enforcing the UN sanctions... Also as Firstdown has pointed out.. if you watch all of the videos of Dem's (when they were in power that is) talking about how Saddam needed to be stopped yada yada yada... its sickening to see the lies coming out of their mouths in the aftermath of the invasion. That whole Bush Bashing Campaign was nothing more than Dem's trying to take power back in the White House.. and they did it on the back of our Soldiers. I am a former Marine.. I was in the First Persian Gulf War.. there are many subjects (Lotus) that we can debate on and you catch me in the wrong.. but this aint one of them. Also there is sooooo much shit that you dont either know or pay attention to that are facts. ie after we went into Afghanistan and broke up the Taliban and the Al Qaeda training camps there.. were do you think they moved?? Yep Dats Rite!! to Nothern Iraq. So with the "FACT" that Al Qaeda was in Iraq.. (ie Al Qaeda in Iraq) and there was intelligence that ALL of the World believed to be true in that Saddam had WMD's doesnt matter to you does it?

You call yourself and independent... I bet youre an independent Socialist... I am an Independent as well... I am an Independent Conservative. I used to call myself Republican until I started to see the big spending mentality that they have as well. Call me a Teabagger... YEP sure love my TEA!!
You are talking about the al Qaeda affiliated group Ansar al-Islam. Yes, they were in northern Iraq. They were in the "No Fly Zone" which was not controlled by Saddam. We controlled the no-fly zone in the air. Therefore we could have bombed the heck out of Ansar al-Islam and wiped those guys out without ever invading.

Since they were in the northern no-fly zone, they were outside of Saddam's control. Thus there was no connection between them and Saddam. If you don't believe me, read the U.S. Army report which says the same thing that I am.

I will give you credit for one thing: at least you are honest about your blaming Clinton for Bush's lies, no matter how foolish a stance that is.
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Old 03-02-2011, 03:33 PM   #115
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Re: Updated Title: World Revolution 2011

Tiggwin, since you are a Tea Party person, certainly you want to avoid wasteful government spending and budget deficits. Please notice that the Iraq war put us $1.2 trillion in debt (mostly to China, our lovely financial ally). If all we wanted to do was to take down Saddam, we could have done it much cheaper. For example, there were several assassination attempts on Saddam and some came close to working. We could have provided materials to ensure that the next attempt would work, and we could have done so much, much cheaper than $1.2 trillion.

Now I realize that such assassinations have been illegal since Bush I. But unprovoked wars are also illegal under international law.

Basically, if our goal was to take out Saddam, we could have done it in a much cheaper way. Why do you continue to support the way that was much more expensive and therefore much more wasteful? Are you true to your Tea Party principles or not?
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Last edited by Lotus; 03-02-2011 at 06:40 PM.
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Old 03-03-2011, 07:22 PM   #116
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Re: Updated Title: World Revolution 2011

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The war was never illegal because we were just enforcing the cease fire agreement.
We did not enforce a cease-fire. We attacked first. It was the only unprovoked war in American history.
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Old 03-04-2011, 10:32 AM   #117
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Re: Updated Title: World Revolution 2011

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You guys ever find yourself out and suddenly you really need to find a restroom? So you go to the nearest restaurant and there's a sign that says "Restrooms for Customers Only"

So then you're like, well damn what do I do. Do I just move on and try to find the next place, or do I buy some fries for a dollar and then use the bathroom?

So I'm not saying the Parking Lot is a bathroom but this is a Redskins fan site, first and foremost. The Locker Room is where we serve our meals and the reason people are joining, to consume Redskins info. Someone who only posts in the Parking Lot, and never actually talks about the Redskins-on a Redskins fan site...it's kind of like walking into our restaurant just to use our bathroom.
So given this scenerio, are they're certain people that flush and one's that don't? And who's good at lifting the lid is what I really want to know.
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Old 03-19-2011, 05:14 PM   #118
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Re: Updated Title: World Revolution 2011

No one here is talking about Libya?
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Old 03-19-2011, 06:51 PM   #119
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Re: Updated Title: World Revolution 2011

What happened?

We were pretty much left with no choice. But I do support Obama's method of getting a broad coalition to carry out this intervention. Pretty interesting watching the Obama doctrine unfold before our eyes.

What's more interesting is that Libya supplies about 3% of the world's oil supply and only a fraction coming to the U.S. So our vital interests are nill.
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Old 03-19-2011, 07:06 PM   #120
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Re: Updated Title: World Revolution 2011

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No one here is talking about Libya?
Of course not, you know that every political thread has to be about the left vs. the right.

Plus nothing is going on in Libya, right? Oh wait, there's this little thing about international forces attacking Gaddhafi. LOL.

On a serious note, I was fearing that the international forces would act a little too late, but that may not be the case. I hope the opposition is able to organize themselves and be able to take advantage of this help from the UN.
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