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S.F. weighs protecting ex-cons seeking homes, jobs

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Old 07-18-2011, 03:48 PM   #16
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Re: S.F. weighs protecting ex-cons seeking homes, jobs

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I find no parallels between disabled persons, minorities, and/or any other protected class of people who have not chosen their lot in life. Criminals on the other hand are not born criminals. I don't think many disagree that we need to, as a society, treat non-violent criminals who've made the efforts to straighten their lives out properly and give them the opportunities to lead successful and contributing lives. I just have a problem with the gov't requiring it. If I don't want to hire someone or rent to them because they stole $3 in gum when they were 16 then that should be my choice. My judgement of their character however in that case is based on empirical data that reasonably leads one to a rational conclusion. In the case of of currently protected persons the goal was to protect against irrational conclusions based on perceptions and biases.

I am not making a correlation between disabled people and criminals, I am pointing out viability and validity of the law proposed by San Fran. As for your take on criminals, they are a product of their environment. If a child is surrounded by crime and criminal activity chances are they will pick up the habit turn to a life of crime (see the Gotti family).

The goal is to rehabilitate these criminals and free form discrimination on the part of society is not going to further this goal.
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Old 07-18-2011, 04:46 PM   #17
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Re: S.F. weighs protecting ex-cons seeking homes, jobs

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In such a liberal state there should be no need for this law and all the liberal bosses would just be hiring with no standars at all so not to discriminate against anyone. Who cares if a women has a 25 years of perfect child care they should just hire the perv who got out of jail for selling kitty porn.

Firstdown... you just made my day at the end of a very long one... Come on meow, you must be doing this on purpose!
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Old 07-18-2011, 04:55 PM   #18
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Re: S.F. weighs protecting ex-cons seeking homes, jobs

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In such a liberal state there should be no need for this law and all the liberal bosses would just be hiring with no standars at all so not to discriminate against anyone. Who cares if a women has a 25 years of perfect child care they should just hire the perv who got out of jail for selling kitty porn.
I guess you don't equate liberalism with finding a balance between liberty and equal rights.

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Old 07-18-2011, 04:56 PM   #19
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Re: S.F. weighs protecting ex-cons seeking homes, jobs

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Saden1 when you and your wife have children she could make the perfect child care provider. After all she only lied to polic. LOL

We have no need for her services. My wife will be staying at home to take care of our children and my mother has volunteered to help out.

BTW, did you read the article?
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Old 07-18-2011, 05:29 PM   #20
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Re: S.F. weighs protecting ex-cons seeking homes, jobs

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The moral hazard in your argument is that even though they have paid their debt you should be free to discriminate against them and inevitably will. This hidden cost is not beneficial to society or the individual being discriminated against. The world is not limited to just your freedom and exercise of and the question is how do you find balance.
The fundamental difference is that I don't believe, when making economic decisions, discriminating against individuals who have shown themselves in the past to be criminals is, at its core, unreasonable. Very simply, once you have committed a criminal act, rehabilitation starts after the debt is paid. Essentially, "doing your time" is the first step towards proof of rehabilitation, not proof in and of itself. Further, I don't see this as the "moral hazard" you do b/c it is not a given that all will discriminate based on a criminal past - would you? Some will, some won't, Some who would initially, will not later.

Obviously, it is not beneficial to those who are discriminated against - but that is true of any discrimination reasonable or unreasonable. To say it is not beneficial to society is a point we will have to disagree on. My right to say no encourages me to invest in property and open up employment and living opportunities. As a benefit to society, I think this outweighs the cost to society of allowing discrimination against former criminals in employment opportunities or rental issues.

You're right it is a question of balance. In this instance, for this issue, I think the balance is to allow individuals the right to choose to whom they rent or whom to employ and then for the state to create incentives through tax breaks and other financial measures to encourage people to employ/lease to individuals with criminal backgrounds.

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Suppose I don't want to go through the trouble of building accessible entry/stairways/bathrooms and don't want to rent to disabled people and don't want to hire a disabled person due to medical care costs? Well, you can't. The law says you can not discriminate against disabled people AND you must provide them with accessible amenities. If such law can exist on the books then so can these laws proposed in San Fran. There is precedence and the claim of financial harm or the potential of is immaterial.
Sure, the state can say you can't unreasonably discriminate against someone based on an immutable characteristic and you cannot practice de facto discrimination by failing to provide the proper amenities (although variances can be had). The difference between the disabled person and the former criminal, however, is that (1) generally, the disability did not arise out of a choice or illegal course of conduct (yes, I know this is not true in all cases); and (2) the disabled person cannot "rehabilitate" their character as a former criminal can. The question is not whether society could make such a law, but whether it should - In our society, is it reasonable for one individual to judge and choose whom to employ or to whom to rent property (i.e. to discriminate between applicants) based on a particular applicant's past choices and/or behaviour. I think that it is both reasonable and a benefit to society to allow such choices.

Again, there are so many options short creating yet another constitutionally "protected class" that I just don't see this as something either necessary or appropriate.
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Old 07-18-2011, 05:35 PM   #21
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Re: S.F. weighs protecting ex-cons seeking homes, jobs

Hey, look, it's training camp and saden1 and I are having a nice lengthy philosophical disagreement (I think). What a shocker. lol.
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Old 07-18-2011, 05:44 PM   #22
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Re: S.F. weighs protecting ex-cons seeking homes, jobs

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We have no need for her services. My wife will be staying at home to take care of our children and my mother has volunteered to help out.

BTW, did you read the article?
"Sex offenders and perpetrators of some violent crimes would not be covered."

Anthony was convicted of three counts of providing false information to the police - not a sex offense or violent crime. Apparently, under the law as proposed, she would not need to disclose that. Sorry, she is a perfect example of why I should be able to say "Nope".
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Old 07-18-2011, 06:30 PM   #23
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Re: S.F. weighs protecting ex-cons seeking homes, jobs

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"Sex offenders and perpetrators of some violent crimes would not be covered."

Anthony was convicted of three counts of providing false information to the police - not a sex offense or violent crime. Apparently, under the law as proposed, she would not need to disclose that. Sorry, she is a perfect example of why I should be able to say "Nope".
This.
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Old 07-18-2011, 07:27 PM   #24
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Re: S.F. weighs protecting ex-cons seeking homes, jobs

JoeRedskin -- Exactly. She was convicted of providing false information to the police. Is that enough of a crime for you to not rent your apartment? People give false information to the cops constantly. She was acquitted of other charges.
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Old 07-18-2011, 07:42 PM   #25
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Re: S.F. weighs protecting ex-cons seeking homes, jobs

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JoeRedskin -- Exactly. She was convicted of providing false information to the police. Is that enough of a crime for you to not rent your apartment? People give false information to the cops constantly. She was acquitted of other charges.
Yup. Damn straight. You provide false info to the police? AND are convicted of it? You're someone who would risk jail time to tell a lie? How can I believe anything you say?

"People give false information to the cops constantly"?? And are convicted for it? So I should have to do business with convicted liars? Sorry - I generally don't give false informatiion to the police. Do you? Further, I generally try not to hang out with/or around people that would put me in a situation that require me to lie to the police. When looking for people to do business with, I look for those same qualities.

You don't see the problem in doing business with people convicted of deceitful behavior?

You are free to employ her, rent to her or otherwise trust her to behave responsibly and reliably. I, however, believe I can find someone more trustworthy on whom to risk my and my family's economic well being.
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Old 07-19-2011, 10:22 AM   #26
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Re: S.F. weighs protecting ex-cons seeking homes, jobs

SF To Shutter Courtrooms; Lay Off 200 Workers - News Story - KTVU San Francisco

but hey, let's protect the ex-cons...
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Old 07-19-2011, 11:39 AM   #27
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Re: S.F. weighs protecting ex-cons seeking homes, jobs

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Yup. Damn straight. You provide false info to the police? AND are convicted of it? You're someone who would risk jail time to tell a lie? How can I believe anything you say?

"People give false information to the cops constantly"?? And are convicted for it? So I should have to do business with convicted liars? Sorry - I generally don't give false informatiion to the police. Do you? Further, I generally try not to hang out with/or around people that would put me in a situation that require me to lie to the police. When looking for people to do business with, I look for those same qualities.

You don't see the problem in doing business with people convicted of deceitful behavior?

You are free to employ her, rent to her or otherwise trust her to behave responsibly and reliably. I, however, believe I can find someone more trustworthy on whom to risk my and my family's economic well being.
Your action and that of many is nothing more than collusive mob justice. She has no choice but to leave the country.

Ultimately, whether through tax incentives or other means society will pay.
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Old 07-19-2011, 11:50 AM   #28
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Re: S.F. weighs protecting ex-cons seeking homes, jobs

Fine. Buy a house, rehab it, and rent it to her. I promise not to stop you.

Society "pays" for everything. Sometimes it gets a good return on its investment, sometimes not.
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Old 07-19-2011, 04:28 PM   #29
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Re: S.F. weighs protecting ex-cons seeking homes, jobs

This on the heels of a recent Supreme Court ruling that California must release some 30,000 prisoners within the next two years due to overcrowding. The court ruled the overcrowding constitutes cruel and unusual punishment.

Supreme Court Demands California Release 30,000 Inmates - COLORLINES
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Old 09-09-2011, 04:40 PM   #30
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Re: S.F. weighs protecting ex-cons seeking homes, jobs

There is a problem with making people second class citizens. Where do they live? If they can't rent an apartment, they will probably move into some guys house in the suburbs....or worse, they will pitch a tent in the woods and operate off the grid. You can't constantly kick the can. Eventually, these people need homes and gainful employment.

As far as I'm concerned ether lock someone up, or let them be free. Don't make them live like an animal, otherwise they will act like one.
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