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Michael Moore thinks Osama Bin Laden deserved a trial

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Old 09-20-2011, 08:26 AM   #31
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Re: Michael Moore thinks Osama Bin Laden deserved a trial

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Originally Posted by Alvin Walton View Post
Horsehockey!
Bin Laden wasn't an American, we are at war......it doesn't apply to him. How in the world could you validate him getting the benefit of our Constitution?
And by that rationale we could never kill anyone on the battlefield, we'd have to capture all of them and put them on trial.
No.

The Constitution does not have an exception for citizenship. If you commit a crime in the United States (9/11 happened here, not in Afghanistan), you have a right to a trial, regardless of your nationality. That is what the Constitution says. I suggest that you re-read your Bill of Rights.

Further, on 9/11/01, there was no declared war against al-Qaeda. Military action happened after that. Before you start talking about war as a context, you need to fix your timeline.
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Old 09-20-2011, 09:09 AM   #32
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Re: Michael Moore thinks Osama Bin Laden deserved a trial

Ok, I'm not a BOR expert.
However I fail to understand how the USA Const. applies to every asshole on the whole globe. It was written for the USA. If anyone should request a trial for him it should be Saudi Arabia.


Some of you guys are too busy hugging the tree to realize that Bin Laden did not surrender to us. He shot at us whether at 9/11 or in his compound in Pakistan.
Its a war.
You kill the bad guys. That's how you win.
Did you think he would have come quietly if we asked him?
The US military went to kill Bin Laden beacuse its a WAR.
Its not the FBI rounding up an illegal Cuban kid.
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Old 09-20-2011, 10:12 AM   #33
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Re: Michael Moore thinks Osama Bin Laden deserved a trial

Finally! A really contentious topic. Yay!

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Old 09-20-2011, 10:28 AM   #34
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Re: Michael Moore thinks Osama Bin Laden deserved a trial

Hey Alvin, you are right. I actually disagreed with your position but since you used bold, caps, red text you have definitely swayed my opinion.

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Old 09-20-2011, 10:33 AM   #35
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Re: Michael Moore thinks Osama Bin Laden deserved a trial

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Originally Posted by Lotus View Post
Further, on 9/11/01, there was no declared war against al-Qaeda. Military action happened after that.
'The Base' declared war on us, Dar al islam declared war on Dar al Harb even before that. Timeline?

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Old 09-20-2011, 11:22 AM   #36
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Re: Michael Moore thinks Osama Bin Laden deserved a trial

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Hey Alvin, you are right. I actually disagreed with your position but since you used bold, caps, red text you have definitely swayed my opinion.
Thanks honey.
Glad to know I converted another tree hugger.
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Old 09-20-2011, 12:25 PM   #37
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Re: Michael Moore thinks Osama Bin Laden deserved a trial

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Originally Posted by Lotus View Post
No.

The Constitution does not have an exception for citizenship. If you commit a crime in the United States (9/11 happened here, not in Afghanistan), you have a right to a trial, regardless of your nationality. That is what the Constitution says. I suggest that you re-read your Bill of Rights.

Further, on 9/11/01, there was no declared war against al-Qaeda. Military action happened after that. Before you start talking about war as a context, you need to fix your timeline.
Lotus,

Typically your arguments are solid, and I don't really have a stance on Bin Laden either way, but I think you are off base on the exception for citizenship. The Pre-amble states:
Quote:
We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.
Here it is pretty definitive that the Constitution was and is designed to primarily to protect US citizens.

Now in Article 3 you might read :
Quote:
The Trial of all Crimes, except in Cases of Impeachment, shall be by Jury; and such Trial shall be held in the State where the said Crimes shall have been committed; but when not committed within any State, the Trial shall be at such Place or Places as the Congress may by Law have directed.
and use this as saying that it doesn't note citizenship, but Amendment 11, which changes an original part of Article 3 reads:
Quote:
The Judicial power of the United States shall not be construed to extend to any suit in law or equity, commenced or prosecuted against one of the United States by Citizens of another State, or by Citizens or Subjects of any Foreign State.
So the Judicial powers do acknowledge the different citizenships of individuals.

Finally, you may solely be looking at Amendment 5:
Quote:
No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.
but the key here is that as an Amendment to the original Constitution, no state, or citizen of any state, could claim it's right without first acknowledging to be subject to the laws and rules laid down in the Constitution itself. I think it is fairly safe to say that Bin Laden did not acknowledge himself to be subject to the US Constitution, thus he could not seek the protection of the Amendments to that document.

(i am sure this can get argued in excess when it comes to illegal immigrants etc, but I am only speaking to whether a non-citizen not on US soil, nor making any claims to US citizenship and law could somehow claim that we must offer them the protection of our Bill of Rights, and the Constitution they amend)
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Old 09-20-2011, 04:27 PM   #38
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Re: Michael Moore thinks Osama Bin Laden deserved a trial

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alvin Walton View Post
Ok, I'm not a BOR expert.
However I fail to understand how the USA Const. applies to every asshole on the whole globe. It was written for the USA. If anyone should request a trial for him it should be Saudi Arabia.


Some of you guys are too busy hugging the tree to realize that Bin Laden did not surrender to us. He shot at us whether at 9/11 or in his compound in Pakistan.
Its a war.
You kill the bad guys. That's how you win.
Did you think he would have come quietly if we asked him?
The US military went to kill Bin Laden beacuse its a WAR.
Its not the FBI rounding up an illegal Cuban kid.
1) The Constitution does not apply to every "asshole" on the planet, as indicated by CRed's post. However, it does apply to crimes committed in the USA. 9/11 happened in the USA. So the Constitution applies.

2) Of course bin Laden did not surrender. He was a fugitive from the law and got shot while resisting arrest. Happens all the time. I shed no tears that this happened. But no here has argued against this. The question on the table, the question that Moore raised, was whether bin Laden deserved a trial if he had been brought in alive. And the Constitution says "yes" to this question.

3) I'm not hugging a tree. I'm defending the US Constitution from those who would prefer to ignore it.
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Last edited by Lotus; 09-20-2011 at 04:58 PM.
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Old 09-20-2011, 04:29 PM   #39
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Re: Michael Moore thinks Osama Bin Laden deserved a trial

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Originally Posted by RedskinRat View Post
'The Base' declared war on us, Dar al islam declared war on Dar al Harb even before that. Timeline?
On 9/11/01 we had not declared war on al-Qaeda or on Afghanistan. By American standards, we were not at war. Therefore hiding behind "war" arguments to suspend the Constitution, as was argued above, would not be legally justifiable in terms of prosecuting a crime which happened on 9/11/01.
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Old 09-20-2011, 04:41 PM   #40
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Re: Michael Moore thinks Osama Bin Laden deserved a trial

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Originally Posted by CRedskinsRule View Post
Lotus,

Typically your arguments are solid, and I don't really have a stance on Bin Laden either way, but I think you are off base on the exception for citizenship. The Pre-amble states:


Here it is pretty definitive that the Constitution was and is designed to primarily to protect US citizens.

Now in Article 3 you might read :
and use this as saying that it doesn't note citizenship, but Amendment 11, which changes an original part of Article 3 reads:
So the Judicial powers do acknowledge the different citizenships of individuals.

Finally, you may solely be looking at Amendment 5:
but the key here is that as an Amendment to the original Constitution, no state, or citizen of any state, could claim it's right without first acknowledging to be subject to the laws and rules laid down in the Constitution itself. I think it is fairly safe to say that Bin Laden did not acknowledge himself to be subject to the US Constitution, thus he could not seek the protection of the Amendments to that document.

(i am sure this can get argued in excess when it comes to illegal immigrants etc, but I am only speaking to whether a non-citizen not on US soil, nor making any claims to US citizenship and law could somehow claim that we must offer them the protection of our Bill of Rights, and the Constitution they amend)
Excellent thoughtful post CRed. I must disagree with your interpretations, though. My understanding of the passage from Amendment 11 which you produced is that it was designed to speak against the idea that the Constitution can be applied in other countries. We can't apply the Constitution in France. But 9/11 was a crime committed in this country so that clause does not apply.

As for bin Laden's assent to governance by the Constitution, things do not work that way. Otherwise any foreigner could come to the USA, break federal law, and claim "You can't try me because I don't assent to your Constitution." Likewise, when I take one of my trips to India, I am subject to Indian law, including the Indian constitution, regardless of my nationality. For bin Laden, his assent was not required since he committed his crime on US soil.

Bin Laden's crime of 9/11 was committed on USA soil. This means that USA law definitely applied, including Constitutional law.
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Old 09-20-2011, 04:51 PM   #41
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Re: Michael Moore thinks Osama Bin Laden deserved a trial

The founding fathers created a nice framework for our country with the drafting of the Constitution. However, time and time again our country's leaders have ignored specific elements within the Constitution...and we're better for it.
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Old 09-20-2011, 05:08 PM   #42
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Re: Michael Moore thinks Osama Bin Laden deserved a trial

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The founding fathers created a nice framework for our country with the drafting of the Constitution. However, time and time again our country's leaders have ignored specific elements within the Constitution...and we're better for it.
I can respect this argument because it recognizes Constitutional provisions rather than completely overlooking them.

But it is a dangerous argument, given that the Constitution protects us from all sorts of possible ugliness.

The Nazis killed many more Americans than bin Laden did. Yet Nazi criminals got trials. Have we become so uncivilized since 1945 that we can no longer live up to our Constitutional ideals of justice by trial?
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Old 09-20-2011, 05:30 PM   #43
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Re: Michael Moore thinks Osama Bin Laden deserved a trial

Definitely a slippery slope when you start selectively applying the principles of the Constitution.
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Old 09-20-2011, 05:35 PM   #44
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Re: Michael Moore thinks Osama Bin Laden deserved a trial

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Originally Posted by Lotus View Post
Excellent thoughtful post CRed. I must disagree with your interpretations, though. My understanding of the passage from Amendment 11 which you produced is that it was designed to speak against the idea that the Constitution can be applied in other countries. We can't apply the Constitution in France. But 9/11 was a crime committed in this country so that clause does not apply.

As for bin Laden's assent to governance by the Constitution, things do not work that way. Otherwise any foreigner could come to the USA, break federal law, and claim "You can't try me because I don't assent to your Constitution." Likewise, when I take one of my trips to India, I am subject to Indian law, including the Indian constitution, regardless of my nationality. For bin Laden, his assent was not required since he committed his crime on US soil.

Bin Laden's crime of 9/11 was committed on USA soil. This means that USA law definitely applied, including Constitutional law.
I look at it more like this: if a violation occurs against US laws, the US certainly has the prerogative to take action in accordance with the Constitution, and if the violation is committed by a US citizen, it has a duty to give that citizen their due process rights. However, if the violation occurs in a military or terrorist action, than the US has the option, as long as it is within international agreements, not to accord non-citizens those same rights. I think that, just as we publicly disavow clandestine acts to kill or topple regimes, you can make the argument that the US acted wrongly here. However, in a point of matter of "reality" there was just no way that the US was going to risk any type of lengthy legal maneuverings to take place with Bin Laden at the center.

It really comes down to (and yea this is great foreign policy) all is fair in love and war. Once Bin Laden took aim at the US, he wrote his own obituary rightly or wrongly
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Old 09-20-2011, 05:40 PM   #45
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Re: Michael Moore thinks Osama Bin Laden deserved a trial

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I can respect this argument because it recognizes Constitutional provisions rather than completely overlooking them.

But it is a dangerous argument, given that the Constitution protects us from all sorts of possible ugliness.

The Nazis killed many more Americans than bin Laden did. Yet Nazi criminals got trials. Have we become so uncivilized since 1945 that we can no longer live up to our Constitutional ideals of justice by trial?
The ones we hired didn't get trials......
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