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'Occupy' types

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Old 10-20-2011, 03:38 PM   #46
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Re: 'Occupy' types

i do believe the current financial structure is out of whack. im sure a bunch of rich guys are getting richer on govt passed policies that make us working class people more in debt.

i hate the fact that over the next 30 years i am going to repay what? 1 million dollars for a 200k home loan . . . but im too tired and busy working to stop and look around. let alone think anything will be done about it.

US economy = working class in debt. it just is what it is. atleast they give us football on sundays and cold beers during happy hour.

im going to be dirving by the occupy balitmore a few times tonight, if i see anything noteworthy ill post it. mayeb ill run up to one of their tents and get a pic of me pissing on it? yay? nay?

edit - got another denial in the email again today. before when i had dirty pee i was invited to interviews, now that i got clean pee i cant get one. the next employer who denies me im goign to go and pee on their front door handle at night. eff employers with their policy of no thank you!

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Old 10-20-2011, 03:41 PM   #47
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Re: 'Occupy' types

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lotus View Post
Profile much?
No, I look at pictures.



http://www.lookingattheleft.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/101511_0063.jpg[/img]

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Old 10-20-2011, 03:42 PM   #48
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Re: 'Occupy' types

Lol, NC_Skins. First things first, just what in the code did they violate? You can't charge someone with a crime without identifying the crime first.
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Old 10-20-2011, 03:43 PM   #49
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Re: 'Occupy' types

AW, so based on a few pictures and image the media wants to portray you will generalize on an entire movement? Nice. Ever heard of a significant statistical sample?
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Old 10-20-2011, 03:49 PM   #50
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Re: 'Occupy' types

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Originally Posted by NC_Skins View Post
You know why it's not clear? THE MEDIA. They don't want to make it clear. They want to make it look like they are some rambling idiots just protesting just to protest.
One, all I have heard from the media is sympathy for the OWS movement - how they are a populist movement striving to focus their outrage. All sorts of little guy v. big bad corporations. At the same time, I am sure that media from the right is doing as you say. I am equally sure that left leaning media is portraying them as modern day evangelists/heros - little Davids against big bad Goliaths. Sunday OWS Notes - NYTimes.com; Occupy Wall Street reacts to Goldman Sachs pay - Oct. 20, 2011; Occupy Wall Street shows muscle, raises $300K - US news - Life - msnbc.com

The typical preachers are talking to the typical choirs. The facts are out there and being reported. Depending on which channel you listen to, the space between the facts is filled with red or blue spin.

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Originally Posted by NC_Skins View Post
It's simple.

1) Criminally charge those who ran the economy/banking industry into the ground.

2) Remove corporate/wall street ties with government.

3) Tax corporations appropriately.
I get it. You hate corporations and rich people. The OWS movement must just have you salivating like crack to an addict. However, if what you say is truly "the message", than the OWS is just plain dumb and is exhibiting a fundamental failure to understand economics and criminal law 101.

(1) Cite me the specific criminal statutes violated by specific individuals. Not some generic bull sh**. Facts & laws - specifics. When, where and how? Who, specifically, committed what specific crimes? Before you start depriving individuals of their liberty, I would suggest they are entitled to a little due process of the law.

If those "who ran the economy/banking industry into the ground" did so out of epically bad judgment rather than through specific criminal actions - does the OWS still support criminal sanctions? I, for one, don't support a movement that would suggest we allow the retroactive imposition of criminal penalties for actions not deemed criminal at the time they were taken. Seems to me a bad, bad precedent.

(2, 3) So tax corporations and take property from their investors but don't let those self-same investors have a voice in government through the corporate entity. More simply, tax but allow no representation - seems to me that was the underlying theme of some other revolution in history.

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There is no ****ing way that those assholes that ran this economy into the ground should be walking away with hundreds of millions of dollars, while sticking the American people with the bill. **** that. Arrest the criminals and send them to jail. Liquidate ALL of their assets and give it back to the people/government.
And it was allllll "the corporations" fault - not all those taking advantage of easy money, applying for loans with inflated home values and false income information or purchasing homes on speculation.

BTW - Is the same govt in which you have no faith that you would have collecting and performing the wealth distribution?

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Originally Posted by NC_Skins View Post
The reason they aren't being tried and convicted is, they are in bed with the politicians. They are major contributors and basically set the policy at hand. The politicians aren't going to take a stand because it's biting the hand that feeds them, and many of them are making huge gains off of the very stuff they let slide.
No. The reason they aren't being tried and convicted is, to my knowledge, they have not done anything criminal but, rather, made dumb/bad investments and used traditionally accepted, but risky, accounting procedures to inflate values in an effort to create the most wealth for their investors.

Ultimately, with corporations, there is inherent conflict/disconnect between the need for and purpose of a corporation's legal existence and the proper functioning of a free market. Corporations exist to pool resources and protect individuals from personal liability which allows for greater risk and larger investment. At the same time, in doing so, the corporate entity shields managers from suffering the same penalty the corporation suffers for bad investments - loss of value. It is this disconnect that allows these large corporations to make dumb, risky investments while having the managers profit regardless of whether or not the corporation wins or loses.

If the OWS really wants to change things then, as the Tea Party has done, create a specific agenda that addresses the real inequities and market dysfunction of corporate law as it applies to large corporations. Find a way to preserve the real and needed protections of the corporate structure while at the same time creating a practical market accountability for managers who exercise poor judgment. I suggest to you that the devil is in the details and that screaming "Corporations are bad" is ineffective, counter-productive and, mostly, just plain stupid.
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Old 10-20-2011, 03:51 PM   #51
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Re: 'Occupy' types

The tone of this whole thread is just representative of the state of our nation. Polarization, generalization and overall negativity reign supreme over actual intelligent debate.
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Old 10-20-2011, 03:53 PM   #52
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Re: 'Occupy' types

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Originally Posted by Lotus View Post
Profile much?
lol
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Old 10-20-2011, 04:21 PM   #53
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Re: 'Occupy' types

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Originally Posted by NC_Skins View Post
You mean fraud isn't breaking the law? Let me quote you what friend of mine said who is in the financial industry.

...

Sounds like fraud to me. Nothing different from this and a Ponzi scheme.
“Sounds like fraud” to you? That’s good enough for me!! Let’s just skip the whole charges, trial, judge & jury thing – lock’em up! Better yet, let's get a posse together and just go door to door shooting people. You make the list, I'll get the guns. No need to involve any government, lawyers or police. They'd just get in the way!

Sorry, but both examples cited by your "friend" (sub-prime loans, neg-am loans) were legal but risky loans for the banks to make and for consumers to take. Risky for the consumer and, as evidenced by the economic collapse, risky for the bank.

I am simply not going to dig it up, but there were plenty of individuals, both corporate and consumer, who went were criminally prosecuted for knowingly falsifying info (oh, wait, you cited one – see below). That’s fraud. On the other hand, selling pie-in-the-sky money to gullible people is not, never has been and never will be, illegal.

Nothing in either example required an economics degree to understand – people were told what they wanted to hear and they ate it up. For a while, everybody profited – not just the banks. Subsequently, everyone had to pay the piper – even the banks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NC_Skins View Post
Nope. Nothing wrong with this. /facepalm
Actually, I agree - the disconnect between white collar crime & penalties and traditional “blue collar” crime penalties is something that needs to be addressed and corrected.

Following the OWS model for change, I’ll meet you in front of the Capital, you bring the bull-horn, I’ll bring the sign. I bet that will be much more effective than organizing an actual national grass-roots political movement, electing like minded people to enact practical and responsive legislation. Regardless of it's effectiveness, I'm sure our bull horn and sign will be easier. Can you remember to bring the Starbucks? Vente Latte please.
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Old 10-20-2011, 04:39 PM   #54
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Re: 'Occupy' types

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AW, so based on a few pictures and image the media wants to portray you will generalize on an entire movement? Nice. Ever heard of a significant statistical sample?
Its hardly a few pictures

This whole movement is so absurd it just begs to be mocked.
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Old 10-20-2011, 05:29 PM   #55
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Re: 'Occupy' types

AW, I see where you are coming from but I wouldn't dismiss the entire movement based on that. Just like the Tea Party movement shouldn't be dismissed based on some of their racist and religious nutjob followers. Again, see my previous post about the nature of this debate.
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Old 10-20-2011, 05:41 PM   #56
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Re: 'Occupy' types

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AW, I see where you are coming from but I wouldn't dismiss the entire movement based on that. Just like the Tea Party movement shouldn't be dismissed based on some of their racist and religious nutjob followers. Again, see my previous post about the nature of this debate.
Fair enough.
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Old 10-20-2011, 10:04 PM   #57
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Re: 'Occupy' types

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Originally Posted by SirClintonPortis View Post
Lol, NC_Skins. First things first, just what in the code did they violate? You can't charge someone with a crime without identifying the crime first.
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Originally Posted by JoeRedskin View Post
(1) Cite me the specific criminal statutes violated by specific individuals. Not some generic bull sh**. Facts & laws - specifics. When, where and how? Who, specifically, committed what specific crimes? Before you start depriving individuals of their liberty, I would suggest they are entitled to a little due process of the law.
I've got nothing on the above. What you both said is 100% true. I guess I'm more pissed there aren't laws and regulations just for this very thing. I do in fact believe many of these guys that got away (with millions and millions) did perpetrate fraud. Were there any investigations? I mean Congress sure went after MLB and steroid testing, but let those jackasses in Wall Street get a pass?

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And it was allllll "the corporations" fault - not all those taking advantage of easy money, applying for loans with inflated home values and false income information or purchasing homes on speculation.
Not so much corporations as it was the banking industry. Not all corporations abuses it's wealth and power to influence government to do their bidding. It's just the major ones. They were giving out loans to people they knew they couldn't afford them and even talking them into these loans. I stated you information from a friend of mine in the industry. However, his professional opinion was passed off as it weren't correct, yet nobody can refute anything he said. This is the key here.

Quote:
It's important to remember that these bankers knew these were bad loans and that at some point it would all collapse. They didn't care. They saw it as a way to makes gobs of money...and they did.
If I go into a bank and make $60,000, and apply for a loan of 5 million dollars, why on earth would they give me that loan knowing good and damn well I'm going to default? Same thing they did here. Not only did they give out the bad loans, they enticed people by offering them low payments. It is ALL of their fault.

Why are we having to bail these asshats out? To big to fail my ass. The thing about "free market" and capitalism is that with the fail of one business, another will rise from the ashes.




Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeRedskin View Post
I get it. You hate corporations and rich people.
You keep saying this, but it doesn't make it true no matter how many times you repeat it. It's almost to the point that Slinging Sammy keeps wanting to refer to me as the Libs/Dem side of the fence. I talk about corporate corruption a lot because it's widespread and they are embedded within our government. I have a HUGE problem with that, much like I do with religion and our government.

I'll say this again. I have 0 problems with corporations as long as they aren't influencing our government/news media, abiding by regulations, and paying their fair share of taxes. Do I need to make this a sig?




Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeRedskin View Post
BTW - Is the same govt in which you have no faith that you would have collecting and performing the wealth distribution?
Not in the current set of assholes residing in DC. No.


Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeRedskin View Post
If those "who ran the economy/banking industry into the ground" did so out of epically bad judgment rather than through specific criminal actions - does the OWS still support criminal sanctions?
I don't believe it was done on "bad judgment". Those guys knew exactly what they were doing. No, I do not support punishment retroactive on crimes committed.



Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeRedskin View Post
(2, 3) So tax corporations and take property from their investors but don't let those self-same investors have a voice in government through the corporate entity. More simply, tax but allow no representation - seems to me that was the underlying theme of some other revolution in history.
Corporations are NOT people, no matter what idiot law might say they are. They are a business and should be treated as such. I think corporations should pay their fair share of tax, just like everybody else. This GE making 14 billion dollars, but paying 0 tax dollars is absurd.



Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeRedskin View Post
I suggest to you that the devil is in the details and that screaming "Corporations are bad" is ineffective, counter-productive and, mostly, just plain stupid.
I think you are reading what you want to. I've stated my thoughts on this and you continue to ignore what I've said and focus on the negative issues I bring up with corporations.
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Old 10-20-2011, 10:11 PM   #58
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Re: 'Occupy' types

Also, there are various reasons why people are protesting.


Seriously... You Don't Know Why We're Here? | Occupy Dallas
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Old 10-20-2011, 10:35 PM   #59
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Re: 'Occupy' types

The reason banks went and gave out subprime mortgages like crazy was that they could pass off the risk on those mortgages to investors who bought mortgage-backed securities. They were protected from the risk those mortgages had and thus didn't give a damn about whether the mortgages would get paid off. Hence, it is a matter of incentives leading the banks to do what they did. It was, as an economics guy would call it, an agency problem, and specifically "moral hazard".
Moral hazard - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

And I wouldn't call the consumer blameless. Not many will sympathize with falling for advanced-fee fraud(i.e Nigerian scam) schemes, so why should those "hoodwinked" by banks get a pass. Not to mention that low credit score people usually have no inhibitions about lying their asses off or deliberately ****ing around with you into giving them money to spend(or in the case of renting, "ethical" leverage into not filing for an eviction or not paying rent).
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Old 10-21-2011, 07:40 AM   #60
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Re: 'Occupy' types

Only one man can resolve this conflict...

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/21/ny...imes&seid=auto
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