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Whats Fair When it Comes to Taxes?

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Old 10-21-2011, 12:59 PM   #31
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Re: Whats Fair When it Comes to Taxes?

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In school I was always taught that the reason people come to America is for opportunity. That America guarantees the pursuit of happiness for everyone but not a guarantee that everyone will be happy.

We are all born into different circumstances but just like you said life isnít fair. Just like its not fair that some people are harder workers then others, smarter, better looking, smooth talking, better athletically, more innovative or...... just good ole rich. Thatís just the way it is, some people are dealt better cards then others. Im not rich and I donít come from a rich family, but I donít think rich people should be punished just like I donít think a hard worker, athlete or model should be punished because of their lack of misfortune.
You seem to be missing historical context and profound misunderstanding of America. Land owners and the wealthy have always paid the most taxes since the inception of this country. In fact, today's rich pay much less than Thomas Jefferson or George Washington paid and with them being the founders you can hardly make the case that we are all of a sudden punishing anyone that's rich.

Those who are here or those who recently came here are free to leave at any time and take their belief and build their dream nation elsewhere.

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I think people who earn more money should pay more taxes because like you said they are benefiting the most. Thatís why I think a percentage is fair, as you earn more you pay more. I also think people at the bottom of the economic scale should be given more opportunity, kind of like they are now but through a more controlled process. So instead of giving someone a huge tax refund (relative to their income) at the end of the year to do what they like with, I think it would be more beneficial to provide them with tools through social programs that present individuals with opportunities to climb the economic latter if that what they choose to do. This would replace tax refunds and be in addition to the subsidies like housing vouchers and food stamps that many of us are already receiving. So more oppertunity for poorer people but its up to you to take advantage of it. Things will never be fair for everyone but i think treating everyone equally is start.
A percentage is not fair for the simple fact that consumable goods and housing are expensive. A percentage wouldn't only punish the poor but the middle class. They are the biggest consumers of good....they will have to make decisions about whether to buy that 30K car + 17% sales tax or send their kid to college for another year. If these people have to make choices like that American would have a revolution brewing in no time.

Flat Tax advocates always present the bright side and positive numbers, they never present the potential pitfalls and ramifications. Any proposal to change the tax code shouldn't be a one page or three pages, it should be like a Form 10-K.
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Old 10-21-2011, 01:03 PM   #32
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Re: Whats Fair When it Comes to Taxes?

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401k contributions aren't taxed at all until they are withdrawn and there a lot of rules around it. For one thing you can borrow against it and not pay taxes or penalty on it so long as you pay it back within 5 years (except when buying a home). You are required to withdraw a minimum amount of it when you turn 70.5 (this requirement was suspended by congress for 2009 because of the economic downturn).

You are technacally suppose to be taxed on it at the tax bracket you were in at your last income generating position before retirement (It doesn't mean you can go get a job at McDonald's though to lower your tax bracket). There are some strategies you can employ to lower your taxes. For example, if you don't anticipate your tax bracket to be lower as you get older and near retirement it might be wise to convert your 401k to Roth IRA before you retire since isn't subjected to minimum distribution rules which could cost you in the long run.


Bottom line is the rules around 401k are quite generous and if you combine it with other financial instruments (i.e. whole life insurance) you can definitely lower your tax bill when you retire.
Thats such a stupid rule. They allow people to dig into their retirement so they can buy a home they cannot afford.
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Old 10-21-2011, 01:13 PM   #33
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Re: Whats Fair When it Comes to Taxes?

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You only get taxed on your profit which is new income. The billionaires hide their money from taxes using similar strategy with capital gains and it isn't fair at all.
Why do you have to use billionair to make your point? Any investor who risk their money in the market benefiits with lower taxes for taking the risk. It also pumps money into corporations so they can expand and hire new people and help grow the ecomony. So its not just the rich that makes out. How about the plumer who has work his entire life and now wants to sell his small book of business for $300,000 so he has a retirement. If it was not for the lower tax he would get hit with a very high tax (remember that considered rich) for that year taking 1/3 $99,000 in taxes. Same with me. A large part of my retirement will be the value of my book of business and I cannot afford to give the fed gov. 1/3 of $600,000. That would be $200,000 from my retirement to the federal gov for selling a business I worked 20 to 30 yrs to build.
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Old 10-21-2011, 01:13 PM   #34
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Re: Whats Fair When it Comes to Taxes?

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Thats such a stupid rule. They allow people to dig into their retirement so they can buy a home they cannot afford.

You're too grown to say stupid stuff like this. You know they can't afford it how? Because they are tapping into their 401k? I tapped into my 401k to buy a home I can afford. Why? because it's kinda smart to maximize your 401k investment, borrow money against yourself for 10 years and pay yourself back with interest.
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Old 10-21-2011, 01:19 PM   #35
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Re: Whats Fair When it Comes to Taxes?

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You're too grown to say stupid stuff like this. You know they can't afford it how? Because they are tapping into their 401k? I tapped into my 401k to buy a home I can afford. Why? because it's kinda smart to maximize your 401k investment, borrow money against yourself for 10 years and pay yourself back with interest.
No I'm correct. Your too smart to know people don't do this all the time. You used your 401 to save the money to buy a home. Most people do not think that far out and they decide to buy a home and because they have no savings they tap into their 401. Thats money they will never pay back.
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Old 10-21-2011, 01:23 PM   #36
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Re: Whats Fair When it Comes to Taxes?

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Originally Posted by saden1 View Post
401k contributions aren't taxed at all until they are withdrawn and there a lot of rules around it. For one thing you can borrow against it and not pay taxes or penalty on it so long as you pay it back within 5 years (except when buying a home). You are required to withdraw a minimum amount of it when you turn 70.5 (this requirement was suspended by congress for 2009 because of the economic downturn).

You are technacally suppose to be taxed on it at the tax bracket you were in at your last income generating position before retirement (It doesn't mean you can go get a job at McDonald's though to lower your tax bracket). There are some strategies you can employ to lower your taxes. For example, if you don't anticipate your tax bracket to be lower as you get older and near retirement it might be wise to convert your 401k to Roth IRA before you retire since isn't subjected to minimum distribution rules which could cost you in the long run.


Bottom line is the rules around 401k are quite generous and if you combine it with other financial instruments (i.e. whole life insurance) you can definitely lower your tax bill when you retire.
Interesting. Thanks for that info!
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Old 10-21-2011, 01:27 PM   #37
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Re: Whats Fair When it Comes to Taxes?

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Why do you have to use billionair to make your point? Any investor who risk their money in the market benefiits with lower taxes for taking the risk. It also pumps money into corporations so they can expand and hire new people and help grow the ecomony. So its not just the rich that makes out. How about the plumer who has work his entire life and now wants to sell his small book (clientell) of business for $300,000 so he has a retirement. If it was not for the lower tax he would get hit with a very high tax (remember that considered rich) for that year taking 1/3 $99,000 in taxes. Same with me. A large part of my retirement will be the value of my book of business and I cannot afford to give the fed gov. 1/3 of $600,000. That would be $200,000 from my retirement to the federal gov for selling a business I worked 20 to 30 yrs to build.
It can be a millionaire...these people only need a few hundred grand to live a lavish lifestyle and their is hardly any long term risk unless you're investing with Maddof. At the end of the day the risk you take means nothing. If you lose money, you get a tax dudction, if you make money you get taxed. Pretty simple stuff.


As for the business owner wanting to sell his business, why shouldn't he get taxed at the highest bracket if he is going to make out 300k? Why does it matter the years who has put into it? Was he not paying himself all those years? I would advise you to start paying yourself (at least 15% of revenue) and putting a chunk of that money you pay yourself away. If you can't, your business isn't doing as well as it should and you might be in trouble when retirement rolls around. Don't blame your piss poor planning on the government, plan better.
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Old 10-21-2011, 01:34 PM   #38
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Re: Whats Fair When it Comes to Taxes?

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No I'm correct. Your too smart to know people don't do this all the time. You used your 401 to save the money to buy a home. Most people do not think that far out and they decide to buy a home and because they have no savings they tap into their 401. Thats money they will never pay back.


Umm, you're required by law to pay back that money within 10 years....and the consequences for not doing so is that it will be treated as a withdrawal with you owing Uncle Sam taxes on the distribution plus a 10% penalty on top of it.

Do you have statistics that shows most people don't pay back and that you are right?
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Old 10-21-2011, 02:36 PM   #39
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Re: Whats Fair When it Comes to Taxes?

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Umm, you're required by law to pay back that money within 10 years....and the consequences for not doing so is that it will be treated as a withdrawal with you owing Uncle Sam taxes on the distribution plus a 10% penalty on top of it.

Do you have statistics that shows most people don't pay back and that you are right?
You may want to read the rules again. Its a hardship rule that allows the use of 401s for a down payment or last resort funding. Pay back is 5 to 30 yrs and can be as little as 60 days. I'll stand by my statement.

Rules for 401k Withdrawal for Home Purchase

The first rule of 401k withdrawal for home purchase is that you must be able to prove to the Internal Revenue Service (IRS) officials that you are going through a financial hardship. Secondly, you should be able to prove that it is your last resort of fulfilling your financial need. You should not have any other funds available, that could suffice your financial needs. Thirdly, you are not allowed to withdraw anything above your financial need. Meaning, if you are required to make a down payment of $10,000 and you cannot arrange for own contribution, then you are allowed to withdraw only $10,000 from your 401k account (provided you have enough balance in it.). The fourth rule is that you should have executed all other options of taxable loans, so that 401k withdrawal is your last option of raising funds for home purchase. After your withdrawal, you cannot contribute to your 401k account for a span of 6 months.

How to Purchase a Home Using a 401k Withdrawal

The 401k regulations explicitly state that 401k withdrawal can be made only for a purchase of a first home. You cannot use this money to make a down payment for your second home. The money withdrawn from 401k is taxable. One important thing to remember, while applying for early 401k withdrawal is that, although the law permits the early withdrawal from 401k, it is not mandatory for the employers to offer such a provision in their plan. Hence, inquire with your human resources department, to know the provision in your individual plan. Also, beware of the penalties you are subjected to, upon the withdrawn amount. A study of IRS regulations, regarding 401k withdrawal for home purchase, may give you a clear idea regarding the taxes and penalty for early withdrawal of 401k funds. At times, you may notice that after paying taxes and penalties, you are only left with considerably less amount than your exact need. Hence, you might anyway have to arrange for funds to cover up the difference.

Implications of 401k Home Purchase Withdrawal

Withdrawing from your 401k funds is definitely not the wisest of all options. For one thing, you lose out on a large sum from your retirement funds, which can make your post retirement life less than secure. You unnecessarily have to bear the burden of taxes and penalties. Besides, you lose out on interest that would have incurred on the withdrawn amount. Hence, you should choose this option only when all the other doors have closed. Borrowing against 401k account may seem to be a good alternative, as it is free of tax and penalties. Besides, the interest accrued from your loan goes back to your account. The repayment span may be anywhere between 5 to 30 years. However, if you lose your job, you will have to repay the loan in as little as 60 days. Failure on your part may lead to penalties and taxes. The loan amount will be then considered as an early withdrawal.

Thus, you should weigh your options wisely, and choose one which can secure your future while still sufficing your current need. Hope this article on 401k withdrawal for home purchase was resourceful.
By Ashwini Kulkarni Sule
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Old 10-21-2011, 03:08 PM   #40
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Re: Whats Fair When it Comes to Taxes?

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Originally Posted by saden1 View Post
You seem to be missing historical context and profound misunderstanding of America. Land owners and the wealthy have always paid the most taxes since the inception of this country. In fact, today's rich pay much less than Thomas Jefferson or George Washington paid and with them being the founders you can hardly make the case that we are all of a sudden punishing anyone that's rich.

Those who are here or those who recently came here are free to leave at any time and take their belief and build their dream nation elsewhere.
I dont know what i said to make you think land owners or wealthy shouldnt be paying the most taxes on their income? I think they should be paying the most but through a flat percentage not a progresive tier. I did not know that Washington Or Jefferson paid higher taxes then today's rich (and wouldnt mind seeing a source that says so), but was it because they paid taxes on property they owned while others didnt own anything?

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A percentage is not fair for the simple fact that consumable goods and housing are expensive. A percentage wouldn't only punish the poor but the middle class. They are the biggest consumers of good....they will have to make decisions about whether to buy that 30K car + 17% sales tax or send their kid to college for another year. If these people have to make choices like that American would have a revolution brewing in no time.

Flat Tax advocates always present the bright side and positive numbers, they never present the potential pitfalls and ramifications. Any proposal to change the tax code shouldn't be a one page or three pages, it should be like a Form 10-K.
Im not really advocating the Fair Tax if thats what youre alluding to here. Im just saying the federal income tax should be an equal percentage for all. But I donít think thatís possible to do overnight and thatís what I like about 9 9 9. Im assuming your 35k + 17% in state and federal sales tax is a 999 reference? Thatís a misleading example as many people donít understand that the car is currently 35k + 8% + A Portion of the Money You Already Paid in Federal Income Taxes . A lower and equal tax on business will also reduce the price of the goods businesses produce since prices will reflect a lower tax amount embedded in the final product, so it may now be a 34k car + 8% +9%.

For some households that may be more than they would have paid in aggregate federal income taxes beforehand but for most it will be less. Also most poor people buy used cars, which wont be subject to federal taxes. While 999 lowers taxes for most it does raise it for some, but most importantly it gets rid of the loopholes for the richÖ.. except for capital gains which is partly why I think they should be taxed equall as well. Although Cain is promoting this as a jobs bill so not taxing capital gains will be a positive for the economy.
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Old 10-21-2011, 04:29 PM   #41
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Re: Whats Fair When it Comes to Taxes?

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What about everyone paying the same percentage from their income minus a basic living cost? Set the basic living cost at the current poverty level, which is around $22k. So if you earn $35k then you'll be taxed on only $13k.

It sounds like Herman Cain might be listening to you:

Under fire, Herman Cain tweaks 9-9-9 plan - Political Hotsheet - CBS News
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Old 10-21-2011, 06:59 PM   #42
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Re: Whats Fair When it Comes to Taxes?

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Originally Posted by firstdown View Post
You may want to read the rules again. Its a hardship rule that allows the use of 401s for a down payment or last resort funding. Pay back is 5 to 30 yrs and can be as little as 60 days. I'll stand by my statement.

Rules for 401k Withdrawal for Home Purchase

The first rule of 401k withdrawal for home purchase is that you must be able to prove to the Internal Revenue Service (IRS) officials that you are going through a financial hardship. Secondly, you should be able to prove that it is your last resort of fulfilling your financial need. You should not have any other funds available, that could suffice your financial needs. Thirdly, you are not allowed to withdraw anything above your financial need. Meaning, if you are required to make a down payment of $10,000 and you cannot arrange for own contribution, then you are allowed to withdraw only $10,000 from your 401k account (provided you have enough balance in it.). The fourth rule is that you should have executed all other options of taxable loans, so that 401k withdrawal is your last option of raising funds for home purchase. After your withdrawal, you cannot contribute to your 401k account for a span of 6 months.

How to Purchase a Home Using a 401k Withdrawal

The 401k regulations explicitly state that 401k withdrawal can be made only for a purchase of a first home. You cannot use this money to make a down payment for your second home. The money withdrawn from 401k is taxable. One important thing to remember, while applying for early 401k withdrawal is that, although the law permits the early withdrawal from 401k, it is not mandatory for the employers to offer such a provision in their plan. Hence, inquire with your human resources department, to know the provision in your individual plan. Also, beware of the penalties you are subjected to, upon the withdrawn amount. A study of IRS regulations, regarding 401k withdrawal for home purchase, may give you a clear idea regarding the taxes and penalty for early withdrawal of 401k funds. At times, you may notice that after paying taxes and penalties, you are only left with considerably less amount than your exact need. Hence, you might anyway have to arrange for funds to cover up the difference.

Implications of 401k Home Purchase Withdrawal

Withdrawing from your 401k funds is definitely not the wisest of all options. For one thing, you lose out on a large sum from your retirement funds, which can make your post retirement life less than secure. You unnecessarily have to bear the burden of taxes and penalties. Besides, you lose out on interest that would have incurred on the withdrawn amount. Hence, you should choose this option only when all the other doors have closed. Borrowing against 401k account may seem to be a good alternative, as it is free of tax and penalties. Besides, the interest accrued from your loan goes back to your account. The repayment span may be anywhere between 5 to 30 years. However, if you lose your job, you will have to repay the loan in as little as 60 days. Failure on your part may lead to penalties and taxes. The loan amount will be then considered as an early withdrawal.

Thus, you should weigh your options wisely, and choose one which can secure your future while still sufficing your current need. Hope this article on 401k withdrawal for home purchase was resourceful.
By Ashwini Kulkarni Sule

What exactly is your statement? People don't pay back the money they from their 401k? You shouldn't take money from your 401k to buy a home?


There are two ways to buy a home with money from your 401k, a) hardship withdrawal which is a taxable event along with a 10% penalty if you are under the age of 59.5 or b) borrow up to 50% from your 401k investments. Like you mentioned hardship withdrawal is a last resort because of the cost associate with it and most people don't go that route. Additionally, before you can do a hardship withdrawal you must first borrow the maximum allowed from you 401k and that's what people typically do. Now if you're borrowing money for the sake of buying a car, the money has to be paid back within 5 years, if you're borrowing money to buy a home the law allows you to payback the money within 10 years or longer. Utlimatly what's available to you is determined by the employer's plan so not every 401k plan is the same. Some plans won't let you borrow, some won't let you contribute while you have an outstanding loan. Some allow for repayment flexibility, others don't.

You are right in that the balance is due within 60 days if you lose your job. This is a risk people should be aware of before they jump in. Then again, if you lose your job you may have other issues to worry about than a 10% penalty. For me it wasn't much of a risk because I have huge amount of money in stock options that I could tap into at any point and easily pay back the loan. I could have sold those options but I choose not to because, well, my stock option value tripped since that time.

Bottom line, don't take distribution from your 401k, borrow from it....401k borrowing is a financial instrument that should be used wisely. Just like anything else in life, you aught to know the risks. If people can't pay it back, that's their own retirement money they are cannibalizing.


Here's a study on the issue:
http://www.rand.org/pubs/working_pap...RAND_WR799.pdf
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Last edited by saden1; 10-21-2011 at 07:02 PM.
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Old 10-21-2011, 11:20 PM   #43
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Re: Whats Fair When it Comes to Taxes?

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Originally Posted by saden1 View Post
What exactly is your statement? People don't pay back the money they from their 401k? You shouldn't take money from your 401k to buy a home?


There are two ways to buy a home with money from your 401k, a) hardship withdrawal which is a taxable event along with a 10% penalty if you are under the age of 59.5 or b) borrow up to 50% from your 401k investments. Like you mentioned hardship withdrawal is a last resort because of the cost associate with it and most people don't go that route. Additionally, before you can do a hardship withdrawal you must first borrow the maximum allowed from you 401k and that's what people typically do. Now if you're borrowing money for the sake of buying a car, the money has to be paid back within 5 years, if you're borrowing money to buy a home the law allows you to payback the money within 10 years or longer. Utlimatly what's available to you is determined by the employer's plan so not every 401k plan is the same. Some plans won't let you borrow, some won't let you contribute while you have an outstanding loan. Some allow for repayment flexibility, others don't.

You are right in that the balance is due within 60 days if you lose your job. This is a risk people should be aware of before they jump in. Then again, if you lose your job you may have other issues to worry about than a 10% penalty. For me it wasn't much of a risk because I have huge amount of money in stock options that I could tap into at any point and easily pay back the loan. I could have sold those options but I choose not to because, well, my stock option value tripped since that time.

Bottom line, don't take distribution from your 401k, borrow from it....401k borrowing is a financial instrument that should be used wisely. Just like anything else in life, you aught to know the risks. If people can't pay it back, that's their own retirement money they are cannibalizing.


Here's a study on the issue:
http://www.rand.org/pubs/working_pap...RAND_WR799.pdf
Your last post said it was smart to use your 401 then I showed the rules that its only to be use as a hardship use. My point was if your that hard up its probably not the best time to buy a home.
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Old 10-22-2011, 09:32 AM   #44
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Re: Whats Fair When it Comes to Taxes?

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Your last post said it was smart to use your 401 then I showed the rules that its only to be use as a hardship use. My point was if your that hard up its probably not the best time to buy a home.
I told, most people take out a loan and there is no need for a hardship withdrawal. I said to you can't conclude the wisdom of it without knowing an individuals circumstance. Not everyone is in the same boat and I gave myself as an example. You don't have to be hitup for money to take money from your 401k.
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Old 10-25-2011, 01:56 PM   #45
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Re: Whats Fair When it Comes to Taxes?

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Originally Posted by saden1 View Post
Umm, you're required by law to pay back that money within 10 years....and the consequences for not doing so is that it will be treated as a withdrawal with you owing Uncle Sam taxes on the distribution plus a 10% penalty on top of it.

Do you have statistics that shows most people don't pay back and that you are right?
awww ****. i took out 10k from my 401k a couple years ago . . . id did take the money out to keep the power on, allow us to move to a smaller cheaper place . . .i hope i checked off the "hardship" box.
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