Trayvon Martin Case

JoeRedskin · 06-13-2012, 02:26 PM

To sum up - Zimmerman has pretty much given the State carte blanche to present evidence against him which he won't then be able to dispute.

mlmpetert · 06-13-2012, 02:46 PM

Interesting Zimmerman himself wasnt charged with perjury. Maybe they cant until his case is over or it could be cause for a mistrial or something? I mean if they charge him too it would give additional reason for the defense to not call him.

Maybe the prosecution desperately wants him to be called? Take away his wife to force him on the stand.

firstdown · 06-13-2012, 03:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeRedskin

My opinion had been that this is a manslaughter case at best b/c nobody knows - beyond a reasonable doubt - that Zimmerman initiated the physical confrontation (negating the self-defense claim) or acted with "reckless disregard" (standard for gross negligence & 2nd degree murder) for Martin's safety. [I know others believe Zimm's known actions constituted an initation of the physical confrontation or constituted the requisite "reckless disregard" - based on my understanding of those to legal principles, I disagree but am not going to argue the isssue at this point.]

Do I think this changes things - yup. The wife gets up on the stand and she is pretty much doomed. Zimmerman almost has to testify to assert his "self-defense" defense. Once he does, he will (and should be) crossed mercilessly on his assertion of self defense. I don't know what status of the spousal immunity laws are in FL. Could the prosecution call her? Probably. Would they? Maybe. I probably would but it would also depend on a lot of other factors that go into case presentation that I haven't really looked at. Bottom line - Zimm's "poor little ol' me" defense has just taken a serious blow.

In a case where his affirmative defense places considerable reliance [EDIT: relies almost exclusively] on his credibility, he just torpedeod it. It still is the State's burden to show gross negligence (for 2nd degree) but Zimmerman will be taking a big risk if he gets on the stand to dispute the evidence presented.

I think this went from a likely not guilty with a possibility of manslaughter to a likelihood of manslaughter with a possibility of 2nd degree murder. Again, just my opinion - I am sure others here see it differently.

Man you really need to become a lawyer.

Chico23231 · 06-14-2012, 10:05 AM

Texas Man Found Guilty for Killing Neighbor in Dispute - Yahoo!

very interesting. in both cases neither of these people show the competency to own a firearm

Hopefully Zim's fate is similar.

JoeRedskin · 06-14-2012, 10:50 AM

There are a couple of significant factual distinctions from the Martin case:
1. Rodriguez [the neighbor] was apparently on his neighbor's property; and
2. He was brandishing his gun as he entered the property.

From the article: "[Rodriguez] walked up to Danaher's driveway with a flashlight and gun."

Stand your ground is inapplicable b/c he had no right to trespass upon his neighbor's property.
Self-defense is inapplicable b/c he brandished his weapon as he trespassed (i.e. Rodriguez threatened deadly force initially. The law does not permit you to threaten others with the highest level of force then, when they reasonably respond with the same level of force, claim you were exercising self-defense].

(1) Both Martin & Zimmerman had a right to be on the public throughway (Martin was invited into the gated community);

(2) There is no evidence that Zimmerman brandished his weapon upon confronting Martin or otherwise threatened any level of force. Verbal confrontation without physical threat does not permit a violent response.

I do agree with this statement and, in relation to the perjury issues, think it is the reason Zimmerman will be found guilty of either manslaughter or 2nd degree murder:

"The defense did not present much of a case as it called no witnesses and Rodriguez didn't testify. Legal experts say if defendants are going to successfully argue self-defense, the jury wants to hear from them."

12thMan · 06-14-2012, 12:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeRedskin

My opinion had been that this is a manslaughter case at best b/c nobody knows - beyond a reasonable doubt - that Zimmerman initiated the physical confrontation (negating the self-defense claim) or acted with "reckless disregard" (standard for gross negligence & 2nd degree murder) for Martin's safety. [I know others believe Zimm's known actions constituted an initation of the physical confrontation or constituted the requisite "reckless disregard" - based on my understanding of those to legal principles, I disagree but am not going to argue the isssue at this point.]

Do I think this changes things - yup. The wife gets up on the stand and she is pretty much doomed. Zimmerman almost has to testify to assert his "self-defense" defense. Once he does, he will (and should be) crossed mercilessly on his assertion of self defense. I don't know what status of the spousal immunity laws are in FL. Could the prosecution call her? Probably. Would they? Maybe. I probably would but it would also depend on a lot of other factors that go into case presentation that I haven't really looked at. Bottom line - Zimm's "poor little ol' me" defense has just taken a serious blow.

In a case where his affirmative defense places considerable reliance [EDIT: relies almost exclusively] on his credibility, he just torpedeod it. It still is the State's burden to show gross negligence (for 2nd degree) but Zimmerman will be taking a big risk if he gets on the stand to dispute the evidence presented.

I think this went from a likely not guilty with a possibility of manslaughter to a likelihood of manslaughter with a possibility of 2nd degree murder. Again, just my opinion - I am sure others here see it differently.

Probably the most cogent, objective analysis I've heard anywhere from anyone regarding this case.

JoeRedskin · 06-14-2012, 01:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 12thMan

Probably the most cogent, objective analysis I've heard anywhere from anyone regarding this case.

Thank you.

NC_Skins · 06-14-2012, 02:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chico23231

Texas Man Found Guilty for Killing Neighbor in Dispute - Yahoo!

very interesting. in both cases neither of these people show the competency to own a firearm

Hopefully Zim's fate is similar.

It was apparent this guy went over to kill his neighbor and he wanted to video tape it to "prove" it. Yet, he was saying how "scared and threatened" he was, yet it was HIM that went onto his property and remained their instead of retreating back to his property to wait for the police. He tried to get away with cold blooded murder, and it was his idea that got him convicted. I was hoping they execute this dumbass. The world would be a better place. I'll donate $5 towards the costs.

JoeRedskin · 06-14-2012, 02:35 PM

I like the part of the tape where he says: "'It's about to get out of hand sir, please help me. Please help me, my life is in danger now ...,' Rodriguez told police over the phone. 'Now, I'm standing my ground here. Now, these people are going to try and kill me.'"

You're life is in danger? Then don't f***'ing "stand your ground" in your neighbor's yard waving a gun.

YOU ... Out of the gene pool!

mlmpetert · 06-14-2012, 02:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 12thMan

Probably the most cogent, objective analysis I've heard anywhere from anyone regarding this case.

Couldnt agree more

Chico23231 · 06-14-2012, 03:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeRedskin

I like the part of the tape where he says: "'It's about to get out of hand sir, please help me. Please help me, my life is in danger now ...,' Rodriguez told police over the phone. 'Now, I'm standing my ground here. Now, these people are going to try and kill me.'"

You're life is in danger? Then don't f***'ing "stand your ground" in your neighbor's yard waving a gun.

YOU ... Out of the gene pool!

"The defense did not present much of a case as it called no witnesses and Rodriguez didn't testify. Legal experts say if defendants are going to successfully argue self-defense, the jury wants to hear from them."

This coward was so ashamed he wouldnt even take the stand to defends such a bs story. people like this shouldnt have the right to own a gun

HailGreen28 · 06-15-2012, 09:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chico23231

"The defense did not present much of a case as it called no witnesses and Rodriguez didn't testify. Legal experts say if defendants are going to successfully argue self-defense, the jury wants to hear from them."

This coward was so ashamed he wouldnt even take the stand to defends such a bs story. people like this shouldnt have the right to own a gun

Agreed. Can't believe anybody would try using the "It's coming right for us!" defense in real life. Big difference between that and being beaten up, IMO.

NC_Skins · 06-18-2012, 02:48 PM

George Zimmerman’s jailhouse telephone recordings released | The Lookout - Yahoo! News

JoeRedskin · 06-22-2012, 05:17 PM

Zimmerman's report to the police the next day.

Watch George Zimmerman re-enact Martin shooting - Video on msnbc.com

It's one side, obviously, and it seems like a lot of it should be verifiable (or disproved) by the physical evidence at the scene. He makes a lot of references to things that others should be able to either affirm or deny.

To me, parts of it sound reasonable. Parts of it not so much.

Chico23231 · 06-27-2012, 10:12 AM

George Zimmerman failed to identify himself twice during a confrontation with Trayvon Martin and missed opportunities to defuse the situation that led to the death of the teen, a detective says in a newly released report.

"Investigative findings show that (Zimmerman) had at least two opportunities to speak with (Martin) in order to defuse the circumstances surrounding their encounter," Serino wrote in the report. "On at least two occasions (Zimmerman) failed to identify himself as a concerned resident or a neighborhood watch volunteer."

The detective also said Zimmerman's actions "are inconsistent with those of a person who has stated he was in fear of another subject."

Investigator: Zimmerman missed opportunities to defuse situation - CNN.com

And this is exactly why Zim deserves to be in jail hopefully for the remainder of his life.

06-13-2012, 02:26 PM	#556
JoeRedskin Contains football related knowledge Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Second Star On The Right Age: 50 Posts: 7,144	Re: Trayvon Martin Case To sum up - Zimmerman has pretty much given the State carte blanche to present evidence against him which he won't then be able to dispute. __________________ My Little Pony: Friendship is magic? or ... a repressive matriarchal society where individuals' roles are defined by their immutable physical characteristics and governance is reserved for those who demonstrate the genetic purity of the pony master race?

06-13-2012, 02:46 PM	#557
mlmpetert Playmaker Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Richmond Posts: 3,207	Re: Trayvon Martin Case Interesting Zimmerman himself wasnt charged with perjury. Maybe they cant until his case is over or it could be cause for a mistrial or something? I mean if they charge him too it would give additional reason for the defense to not call him. Maybe the prosecution desperately wants him to be called? Take away his wife to force him on the stand. __________________ https://constitutionminute.hillsdale.edu/episode1

06-14-2012, 10:05 AM	#559
Chico23231 Franchise Player Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Richmond, VA Age: 36 Posts: 7,784	Re: Trayvon Martin Case Texas Man Found Guilty for Killing Neighbor in Dispute - Yahoo! very interesting. in both cases neither of these people show the competency to own a firearm Hopefully Zim's fate is similar. __________________ Ready for the Draft.

06-14-2012, 10:50 AM	#560
JoeRedskin Contains football related knowledge Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Second Star On The Right Age: 50 Posts: 7,144	Re: Trayvon Martin Case There are a couple of significant factual distinctions from the Martin case: 1. Rodriguez [the neighbor] was apparently on his neighbor's property; and 2. He was brandishing his gun as he entered the property. From the article: "[Rodriguez] walked up to Danaher's driveway with a flashlight and gun." Stand your ground is inapplicable b/c he had no right to trespass upon his neighbor's property. Self-defense is inapplicable b/c he brandished his weapon as he trespassed (i.e. Rodriguez threatened deadly force initially. The law does not permit you to threaten others with the highest level of force then, when they reasonably respond with the same level of force, claim you were exercising self-defense]. (1) Both Martin & Zimmerman had a right to be on the public throughway (Martin was invited into the gated community); (2) There is no evidence that Zimmerman brandished his weapon upon confronting Martin or otherwise threatened any level of force. Verbal confrontation without physical threat does not permit a violent response. I do agree with this statement and, in relation to the perjury issues, think it is the reason Zimmerman will be found guilty of either manslaughter or 2nd degree murder: "The defense did not present much of a case as it called no witnesses and Rodriguez didn't testify. Legal experts say if defendants are going to successfully argue self-defense, the jury wants to hear from them." __________________ My Little Pony: Friendship is magic? or ... a repressive matriarchal society where individuals' roles are defined by their immutable physical characteristics and governance is reserved for those who demonstrate the genetic purity of the pony master race?

06-14-2012, 02:35 PM	#564
JoeRedskin Contains football related knowledge Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Second Star On The Right Age: 50 Posts: 7,144	Re: Trayvon Martin Case I like the part of the tape where he says: "'It's about to get out of hand sir, please help me. Please help me, my life is in danger now ...,' Rodriguez told police over the phone. 'Now, I'm standing my ground here. Now, these people are going to try and kill me.'" You're life is in danger? Then don't f***'ing "stand your ground" in your neighbor's yard waving a gun. YOU ... Out of the gene pool! __________________ My Little Pony: Friendship is magic? or ... a repressive matriarchal society where individuals' roles are defined by their immutable physical characteristics and governance is reserved for those who demonstrate the genetic purity of the pony master race?

06-18-2012, 02:48 PM	#568
NC_Skins Franchise Player Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 8,274	Re: Trayvon Martin Case George Zimmerman’s jailhouse telephone recordings released \| The Lookout - Yahoo! News __________________ "So let me get this straight. We have the event of the year on TV with millions watching around the world... and people want a punt, pass, and kick competition to be the halftime entertainment?? Folks, don't quit your day jobs."- Matty

06-22-2012, 05:17 PM	#569
JoeRedskin Contains football related knowledge Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Second Star On The Right Age: 50 Posts: 7,144	Re: Trayvon Martin Case Zimmerman's report to the police the next day. Watch George Zimmerman re-enact Martin shooting - Video on msnbc.com It's one side, obviously, and it seems like a lot of it should be verifiable (or disproved) by the physical evidence at the scene. He makes a lot of references to things that others should be able to either affirm or deny. To me, parts of it sound reasonable. Parts of it not so much. __________________ My Little Pony: Friendship is magic? or ... a repressive matriarchal society where individuals' roles are defined by their immutable physical characteristics and governance is reserved for those who demonstrate the genetic purity of the pony master race?

06-27-2012, 10:12 AM	#570
Chico23231 Franchise Player Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Richmond, VA Age: 36 Posts: 7,784	Re: Trayvon Martin Case George Zimmerman failed to identify himself twice during a confrontation with Trayvon Martin and missed opportunities to defuse the situation that led to the death of the teen, a detective says in a newly released report. "Investigative findings show that (Zimmerman) had at least two opportunities to speak with (Martin) in order to defuse the circumstances surrounding their encounter," Serino wrote in the report. "On at least two occasions (Zimmerman) failed to identify himself as a concerned resident or a neighborhood watch volunteer." The detective also said Zimmerman's actions "are inconsistent with those of a person who has stated he was in fear of another subject." Investigator: Zimmerman missed opportunities to defuse situation - CNN.com And this is exactly why Zim deserves to be in jail hopefully for the remainder of his life. __________________ Ready for the Draft.

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Trayvon Martin Case

Debating with the enemy