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Trayvon Martin Case

Debating with the enemy


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Old 06-28-2013, 11:25 AM   #601
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Re: Trayvon Martin Case

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Originally Posted by JoeRedskin View Post
Not total but certainly not particularly helpful.
Not totaly? I have not heard the whole thing but she seemed like the defendants star witness.
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Old 06-28-2013, 11:27 AM   #602
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Re: Trayvon Martin Case

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If you get into a fist fight with someone in Florida and the other person dies as a result of injures received during the fight, it is charged as murder!!! If the injuries were not from the fight, then no murder. Zimmerman.. murder.
Not if your defending yourself.
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Old 06-28-2013, 12:25 PM   #603
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Re: Trayvon Martin Case

It really is hard to judge when you aren't in the court room to observe the person's demeanor. So much of how we communicate is done through our body language and tone of voice.

I agree that Jeannette was deemed a bad witness at the same time, the picture I got from reading the testimony is that the witnesses are all pretty much in an agreement that Zimmerman was on top of Martin at the end of the fight shortly after the gunshot.

Still, lots of confusion and conflicting testimony on a lot of issues which, of course, is helpful to the defense.
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Old 06-28-2013, 12:40 PM   #604
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Re: Trayvon Martin Case

There's not going to be a proverbial smoking-gun. This whole case has very little hard evidence as it relates to the circumstances of the shooting. Based on testimony I've seen the prosecution's star witness certainly came off like she intended to be less than forthcoming and based on her combative nature on the first day it made it look like she was out for vengeance. I think her testimony ends up helping Zimmerman at the very least by muddling everything up even more.
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Old 06-28-2013, 01:32 PM   #605
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Re: Trayvon Martin Case

I agree with your assessment of the evidence - or, more precisely, the lack thereof. From a practical perspective, however, I think the prosecutor's goal is to create enough circumstantial doubt about Zimmerman's innocence where the jury wants to hear his side of the story and, thus, put Zimmerman in a dilemma of testifying and risking a probably deadly cross or of not testifying and having the jury (despite any instruction not to) use his silence against him.

To that end, the star witness's testimony probably adds to the confusion of a deadly fight and increases the jury's desire for an explanation of what happened from Zimmerman.

Based on the evidence so far, I think the prosecution has a hard row to go - and certainly hasn't shown yet - 2nd degree murder. They may just be trying for manslaughter and count anything else as gravy.
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Old 06-28-2013, 01:34 PM   #606
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Re: Trayvon Martin Case

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Originally Posted by JoeRedskin View Post
It really is hard to judge when you aren't in the court room to observe the person's demeanor. So much of how we communicate is done through our body language and tone of voice.

I agree that Jeannette was deemed a bad witness at the same time, the picture I got from reading the testimony is that the witnesses are all pretty much in an agreement that Zimmerman was on top of Martin at the end of the fight shortly after the gunshot.

Still, lots of confusion and conflicting testimony on a lot of issues which, of course, is helpful to the defense.
How could that help anyone if it was after the gun shot?
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Old 06-28-2013, 01:49 PM   #607
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Re: Trayvon Martin Case

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How could that help anyone if it was after the gun shot?
if zimmerman was on top of martin right after the gun shot, it is circumstantial evidence that zimmerman was on top of martin right before the gun shot.

direct evidence that a deer was in a field - witness says he saw a deer in a snowy field.

circumstantial evidence that a deer was in a field - witness says he saw fresh deer tracks in a snowy field.
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Old 06-28-2013, 02:26 PM   #608
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Re: Trayvon Martin Case

Just read another witness's testimony. John Good who appears to have had the best "pre-gun shot" view and he clearly places Zimmerman on the ground with Martin in a "ground and pound" MMA position on top of him.

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Good said it seemed like the person on the bottom was yelling for help. Good said he saw the person on top “straddling”the person on the bottom, and the person on top was moving their hands in a downward striking motion that looked like what he called a "ground and pound," a term associated with MMA or mixed-martial arts fighting.

"It looked like that position was a ground-and-pound type position, but I couldn't tell 100% that there were actually fists hitting faces," said Good.

Defense attorney Mark O'Mara asked Good to define the term "ground and pound."

"It's usually when someone is on top in a mounted position, I believe, in the dominant position, but like I said the person on the bottom is able to throw punches back, but I did not see any of that," said Good.
Terrible witness for the prosecution.
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Old 06-28-2013, 02:48 PM   #609
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Really fascinating watching the attorneys work.

Mr. Manalo seemed to be a good D witness.
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Old 06-28-2013, 02:57 PM   #610
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Re: Trayvon Martin Case

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Originally Posted by JoeRedskin View Post
Just read another witness's testimony. John Good who appears to have had the best "pre-gun shot" view and he clearly places Zimmerman on the ground with Martin in a "ground and pound" MMA position on top of him.



Terrible witness for the prosecution.
Isn't this another witness for the prosecuter.
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Old 06-28-2013, 03:18 PM   #611
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Re: Trayvon Martin Case

^^ Right now the prosecution is putting on its case. They have to call the guy (Good) or the defense will and then it just looks like the prosecutors were hiding him from the jury. You'll notice (1) Prosecutor spent ~1/2 hour on Good's testimony but defense attorney spent 1.5 hours with him; and (2) Also, the prosecutor sandwiched him between Mr. and Mrs. Mannalo who they probably considered better witnesses (although Defense got in a great affirmation: Z's Attorney: "He was breathing hard, he looked like he had just gotten his butt beat", Manalo's response "Yes").

Again, prosecutor spent 20 mins with Mr. Manalo while defense ~ 45.

Have to say, I was not impressed with the "knock, knock" joke in the opening by Defense but they have done a very good job highlighting the evidentiary holes and the conflicting statements from various witnesses.

Also, it seems to me that the prosecutor is consistently asking only those whose testimony is favorable what they saw or said to police - they are letting the defense bring out the good statements in cross. I think that is a mistake.

Prosecutor doesn't have a lot to work with but I'm not sure he is making the most of what he has.
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Old 06-28-2013, 03:32 PM   #612
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Re: Trayvon Martin Case

If yesterday was a bad day for the prosecution, today was REALLY bad. Not sure who they have left. Perhaps forensics to testify about the gunshot and the position of the bodies at the time of the firing?
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Old 06-28-2013, 03:43 PM   #613
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Re: Trayvon Martin Case

Here is a list of witnesses so far:

List of witnesses called in the George Zimmerman trial | Bay News 9
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Old 06-28-2013, 04:01 PM   #614
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Re: Trayvon Martin Case

Wow. The defense is doing a great job. Prosecutor spends 10 minutes getting some very mundane info from the EMT on the scene (essentially - Q: Was Martin dead? A: Yes; Q: Did Z have head injuries? A: Yes). Then, in five minutes (!!), Zimmerman's attorney has the EMT agree that, based on the injuries she observed, if Zimmerman was on his back, he would be swallowing blood from the nose injury and would reasonably be concerned about concussive or brain injuries.

And then this:

Q: Do you think a person who sustained those types of injuries in the back of their head should be concerned about their medical safety?

A: Possibly

Regardless of the outcome of this case, that's some damn fine lawyering right there - take a mundane fact witness and have them, essentially, create the prima facie case for your affirmative defense. Do it quickly and pointedly. I am in awe.

Based on this testimony, Zimmerman doesn't need to get on the stand testify that he was reasonably in fear of his life to establish his affirmative defense. Huge. Other witnesses may get more attention ultimately but this one was truly a game changer. On top of that, she was only on the stand for ~25 minutes.

Witness: Zimmerman, Martin in MMA-style fight | HLNtv.com
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Last edited by JoeRedskin; 06-28-2013 at 04:19 PM.
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Old 06-28-2013, 04:21 PM   #615
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Re: Trayvon Martin Case

It's testimony like the EMT's that no one normally hears about that turns cases and has everyone who wasn't in the courtroom going "WTF - how could they rule that way?". Next time you see that happen, don't be so quick to judge the jury as idiots - they hear a ton of sh** nobody else does b/c it's just not sexy testimony. Ten minutes of testimony can drastically alter the outcome of a case.
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