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Trayvon Martin Case

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Old 07-11-2013, 07:07 AM   #886
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Re: Trayvon Martin Case

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Originally Posted by HailGreen28 View Post
You have beyond a reasonable doubt that Zimmerman actually provoked violence against himself? If that's your opinion, it is what it is, but why are you so sure of that? SMH at the idea 84clark has expressed that getting out of your car and following someone is legally reason enough to be attacked.

The rest, good lord, where do you get the idea that what you said above is how Zimmerman justified shooting Martin? And what Zimmerman actually thought afterwards?

Zimmerman claimed his self-justification was that he called for help and nobody came, and that Martin had reached for Zimmerman's gun (not grabbed it, reached for it). This might or might not be true, but how did you come to be so sure otherwise?
The most important piece of evidence is the call. Alot people giving Zim too much credit. Yes from what I see and hear from Zim, Im sure of that.

So as long as I yell help, I can shoot someone? Thats justification? Ill remember that.
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Old 07-11-2013, 07:08 AM   #887
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Re: Trayvon Martin Case

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Originally Posted by JoeRedskin View Post
(snip).
JoeR, could the prosecution's plan all along have been to overcharge, get a jury that might be predisposed to look for a compromise ("to make everybody happy"), to get a manslaughter charge?
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Old 07-11-2013, 07:09 AM   #888
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Re: Trayvon Martin Case

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Originally Posted by Chico23231 View Post
There is no doubt in my mind its manslaugher. Negligent killing. I also believe in Zim's mind stand your ground qualified his actions. Not being talked enough in the case, but that was Zim's justification. Zim thought he had the right to even use force to protect his neighborhood. People need to understand, he's not a normal, reasonable person. After he actually killed Trayvon, only then did he think, oh no I shouldnt have done this; up until that point he thought he had every right to do what he did. The law has to be the line in the sand, his negligence and direct actions lead to the death of a completely innocent kid. Remember Trayvon did nothing...this wasnt a case of a kid breaking in cars or houses or dealing drugs etc.
To be clear, I understand that is what you think happened and why. I also agree that it is a reasonable explanation of what happened that night.

My question to you is - Is it the only reasonable explanation of what happened that night? For me, I just don't know with any degree of certainty who started the fight and I believe that, at the moment he fired the gun, Zimmerman really was reasonably in fear of his life. Are you saying that my belief is completely irrational and has no support from the evidence submitted?
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Old 07-11-2013, 07:10 AM   #889
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Re: Trayvon Martin Case

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Originally Posted by Chico23231 View Post
The most important piece of evidence is the call. Alot people giving Zim too much credit. Yes from what I see and hear from Zim, Im sure of that.

So as long as I yell help, I can shoot someone? Thats justification? Ill remember that.
Well, do you think Zimmerman would have still shot Martin if someone had come to help? That's one risk Zimmerman was taking in calling for help if he wanted to shoot Martin, right?
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Old 07-11-2013, 07:20 AM   #890
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Re: Trayvon Martin Case

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Originally Posted by HailGreen28 View Post
JoeR, could the prosecution's plan all along have been to overcharge, get a jury that might be predisposed to look for a compromise ("to make everybody happy"), to get a manslaughter charge?
Yes. They would not be the first and they won't be the last to do so. Of course, in doing so, they run the risk of promising more than they can prove and creating an expectation from the jury that they cannot match.

I did not watch the openings. The best indication that this is what they did would be how they approached the issue there. If they did a "soft sell" of the murder 2 "reckless acts" facts at that point while emphasizing the manslaughter "negligent act" facts, then that was likely the plan all along.
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Old 07-11-2013, 07:23 AM   #891
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Re: Trayvon Martin Case

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Originally Posted by HailGreen28 View Post
... Read further, I think the website you brought up pretty much addresses and then invalidates every argument you're made in this thread, saden.
Objective analysis, critical thinking and knowledge of the law have not been saden1's strong suits at any point in this thread.

Bias, demagoguery and ignorance, however ...
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Old 07-11-2013, 07:34 AM   #892
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Re: Trayvon Martin Case

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So as long as I yell help, I can shoot someone? Thats justification? Ill remember that.
I won't insult your intelligence by asserting all Zimmerman did was innocently follow a guy he thought to be was suspicious. Please don't insult mine by asserting that Zimm yelling for help is the only evidence in support of Zimm's claim of reasonably being in fear of his life.
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Old 07-11-2013, 08:21 AM   #893
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Re: Trayvon Martin Case

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Originally Posted by JoeRedskin View Post
To be clear, I understand that is what you think happened and why. I also agree that it is a reasonable explanation of what happened that night.

My question to you is - Is it the only reasonable explanation of what happened that night? For me, I just don't know with any degree of certainty who started the fight and I believe that, at the moment he fired the gun, Zimmerman really was reasonably in fear of his life. Are you saying that my belief is completely irrational and has no support from the evidence submitted?
Yes. My favorite quote and Zim's direct disregard of the request not to follow or approach is enough to decisively understand exactly who is the aggressor. There was a fight no doubt. They were rolling around in the dark on the ground.

Nobody really cant ask Trayvon if his life was in danger, can they?

Trayvon life was obviously in danger because the armed man following him had already made a decision he wasnt getting away by his own statement and decision to disregard instruction. The aggressor is clear as day.

There is no doubt Zim is responsible for the negligent death of Trayvon.
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Old 07-11-2013, 09:35 AM   #894
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Re: Trayvon Martin Case

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Originally Posted by Chico23231 View Post
Yes. My favorite quote and Zim's direct disregard of the request not to follow or approach is enough to decisively understand exactly who is the aggressor. There was a fight no doubt. They were rolling around in the dark on the ground.

Nobody really cant ask Trayvon if his life was in danger, can they?

Trayvon life was obviously in danger because the armed man following him had already made a decision he wasnt getting away by his own statement and decision to disregard instruction. The aggressor is clear as day.

There is no doubt Zim is responsible for the negligent death of Trayvon.
I strongly disagree that there is "no doubt" or that the aggressor is "clear as day". Merely following someone and verbally confronting them, despite anyone's instruction not to, does not make someone a physical aggressor or prove, under any standard of proof except speculation, that the person they were following was in imminent fear of physical harm. While it may have caused TM to be so, based on the testimony of Jeantel, it is just as reasonable for me to believe that Martin held a belief similar to G84C and saden1 that "you follow me, I'ma gonna whoop your ass" particularly as to this "creepy ass cracker".

There is a complete lack of any eyewitnesses of the fight's initiation and only one who had a clear view of the fight in progress - who testified that Martin had Zimmerman pinned to the ground. Even though Good "couldn't tell" if the flailing arms he saw were Martin striking Zimmerman, I believe that, based on the photos at the scene and shortly thereafter, and Zimmerman's cries for help, Martin had Zimmerman pinned on he ground and was beating the sh** out of him. The injuries to Zimmerman look significant to me and a neutral medical professional at the scene stated they could cause someone to reasonalby fear for their medical safety. Also, the fact that Martin exhibited almost no physical indications of being in a fight while Zimmerman was screaming for help and - according to an eyewitness and the photos at the scene - "looked like he had gotten his butt whooped" indicates to me that this was a vicious beat down and not a physical contest in any sense of the word. Zimmerman was not "simply losing a fist fight" as some have asserted - he was being beaten with a reckless abandon as to the injuries being caused.

Your belief as to how the events occurred, while one presenting reasonable scenario, ignores and disregards what I believe to be credible evidence that supports an entirely different and equally plausible description of the events of that evening. Clearly, if you and I were on the jury it would result in a mistrial, because nothing you have said erases the doubts I have as to the events and, obviously, nothing I could say at this point will convince you that it could have happened in any way other than as you have described it.

While I respect your opinion of the events as one sincerely and honestly held, I strongly disagree with it and I believe it to be supported, at least in part, by certain opinions you have held since this case initially hit the news - opinions held based on your own life's experiences rather than the evidence in this case. With that said, I confess that my opinion is likely to be influenced by the same. That's why we have juries - Different people bring different experiences to the discussion.

It's also why we have the law, so that all these differing experiences are held to the same standard. In this case, based on the evidence submitted, I firmly believe no one can state with any reasonable degree of certainty (1)exactly what happened that night or (2) without a doubt, Zimmerman's actions were unreasonable. Because of that, I firmly believe the law requires Zimmerman to found innocent. You disagree.

Finally, while we strongly disagree, I thank you for your (mostly ) respectful approach to the discussion.
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Last edited by JoeRedskin; 07-11-2013 at 09:54 AM.
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Old 07-11-2013, 09:42 AM   #895
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Re: Trayvon Martin Case

For sure Joe. It will be interesting how the jury finds the case, my hunch is guilty manslaughter, but think its close at 50-50. I just hope no riots breakout to add to Zim's bodycount.
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Old 07-11-2013, 10:20 AM   #896
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Re: Trayvon Martin Case

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Hey, OTM. Enjoyed reading your posts, as well as JoeR and RR's in this thread, even though you and I apparently disagree.


So, OTM, I really don't understand why you quote the standards for self defense, and then appear to think that the burden of proof rests with the defense in this case.
this is an interesting case. i think everyone here is being "reasonable" in their approach and thoughts but yet we have a split of opinion on the warpath ..


im not a crim def atty, and it appears this has been covered ad nauseum in this thread since you posted .. but after spending 10 seconds i believe what has already been said in here ... the burden is on the defendant to establish a prima facie case of justified self-defense, then the burden swings back to the prosecution to prove beyond a reas doubt that the amount of force used in self defense was unjustified ....

and sufficient evidence to support a prima facie case can come from any where and anyone, it doesnt have to come from the defendant's own mouth or even from the defendant's witnesses . . just as long as the admitted evid at trial supports it . .
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Old 07-11-2013, 11:21 AM   #897
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Re: Trayvon Martin Case

Given that it's a jury of 6 women, It's a shame we only have DRave's take on the issue - would love to see if the opposite gender is as equally divided as we seem to be.

(No knock on you DRave, I appreciate your input - just would be nice if we had some variety).

DRave is the one who made the early call of mistrial - just looking at our reactions, that is starting to seem like a very likely outcome. Not changing my prediction, just questioning it more. lol
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Old 07-11-2013, 11:54 AM   #898
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Re: Trayvon Martin Case

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Originally Posted by JoeRedskin View Post
Apparently, however, you do not possess the ability to read. Sipple v. State, 972 So. 2d 912, 916 (2007):


Where oh where is there one single, on-point Florida case that says "the defendant's statements are insufficient evidence in an affirmative defense claim."? Because the Sipple case says exactly the opposite [BTW - see the "cert denied" descriptive in the Peterka cite means the Supremes had a chance to reverse but didn't, just an FYI for you next Holiday Inn stay]. Bring the law b/c so far all you've brought is bullshit.

As to your claim "you didn't seem to think earlier there is a burden on the defense and now you're claiming to have said there is all along". There isn't a "burden" as you seem to be defining it. Rather, what I have consistently said was that, in this case, GZ doesn't have to prove anything b/c a prima facia showing of the self-defense claim has been made by the prosecution. That is an absolutely correct statement of the law and you have yet to cite one relevant case or statute to dispute it. I have conceded that, if the prosecution's case had not provided the prima facia evidence for such his claim, GZ would have the "burden" of the making a minimal showing. Even then, and contrary to your continuous assertions, however, it is not his burden to prove a reasonable doubt but, rather, simply to create a question of fact as to the existence of reasonable doubt. That's the f'ing law and nothing - NOTHING - you have brought to the table contradicts that except your whiny cries of "nuh -uhhh".

I do this for a living and will beat on you all day just b/c it's fun to show your bias and intentional ignorance. Quote an on point Florida case, statute or regulation that supports you assertion and overturns Sipple, Jenkins and a host of other Florida case law. You can't. You got nothing but ignorance, bias and petulance left.

You're muddling the water and you god damn well know it. The Sipple case is all about whether the defendant raised a self-defense claim not that there isn't a greater burden on him once he raised self-defense than a normal defendant. What the court said in the Snipple case is that the defendant raised the a self-defense argument through his police testimony and that his attorney should have done a better job in representing him,


If Zimmerman's defense does not actively provide sufficient evidence to the court to support his self-defense claim the prosecutor can petition the court to force the defense to provide material to support a self-defense claim. If the defense does not then the affirmative defense claim can be thrown out all together. In the Snipple case the court said the defendants statement constitute supporting material.

If Zimmerman doesn't call EMT or any other witnesses and simply used his statements to the police he will most certainly be found guilty. "The word 'affirmative' in 'affirmative defense' refers to the requirement that the defendant prove the defense, as opposed to negating the prosecution’s evidence of an element of the crime.

As a lawyer you should know all of this! A lowly software engineer should have to fcking explain this shit to you.

Last edited by saden1; 07-11-2013 at 12:09 PM.
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Old 07-11-2013, 11:55 AM   #899
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Re: Trayvon Martin Case

gentlemen, you cant fight in here. This is the war room.
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Old 07-11-2013, 12:02 PM   #900
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Re: Trayvon Martin Case

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given that it's a jury of 6 women, it's a shame we only have drave's take on the issue - would love to see if the opposite gender is as equally divided as we seem to be.

(no knock on you drave, i appreciate your input - just would be nice if we had some variety).

Drave is the one who made the early call of mistrial - just looking at our reactions, that is starting to seem like a very likely outcome. Not changing my prediction, just questioning it more. Lol

ha since when do we care about a woman's opinion......................
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