Warpath  

Home | Forums | Salary Cap Info | Shop | Donate | Stay Connected




Go Back   Warpath > Off-Topic Discussion > Debating with the enemy


Trayvon Martin Case

Debating with the enemy


Closed Thread
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 07-12-2013, 12:30 PM   #931
Contains football related knowledge
 
JoeRedskin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Second Star On The Right
Age: 52
Posts: 9,302
Re: Trayvon Martin Case

The instruction relating to self-defense:

Quote:
An issue in this case is whether George Zimmerman acted in self-defense. It is a defense to the crime of Second Degree Murder, and the lesser included offense of Manslaughter, if the death of Trayvon Martin resulted from the justifiable use of deadly force.

“Deadly force” means force likely to cause death or great bodily harm.
A person is justified in using deadly force if he reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself.
In deciding whether George Zimmerman was justified in the use of deadly force, you must judge him by the circumstances by which he was surrounded at the time the force was used. The danger facing George Zimmerman need not have been actual; however, to justify the use of deadly force, the appearance of danger must have been so real that a reasonably cautious and prudent person under the same circumstances would have believed that the danger could be avoided only through the use of that force. Based upon appearances, George Zimmerman must have actually believed that the danger was real.

If George Zimmerman was not engaged in an unlawful activity and was attacked in any place where he had a right to be, he had no duty to retreat and had the right to stand his ground and meet force with force, including deadly force if he reasonably believed that it was necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or another or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony.

In considering the issue of self-defense, you may take into account the relative physical abilities and capacities of George Zimmerman and Trayvon Martin.

If in your consideration of the issue of self-defense you have a reasonable doubt on the question of whether George Zimmerman was justified in the use of deadly force, you should find George Zimmerman not guilty.

However, if from the evidence you are convinced beyond a reasonable doubt that George Zimmerman was not justified in the use of deadly force, you should find him guilty if all the elements of the charge have been proven.
__________________
You aren't worth the water in my spit but, maybe, just maybe, you're worth the lead in my shotgun.
JoeRedskin is offline  

Advertisements
Old 07-12-2013, 12:44 PM   #932
Contains football related knowledge
 
JoeRedskin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Second Star On The Right
Age: 52
Posts: 9,302
Re: Trayvon Martin Case

Strong rebuttal. IMO, not enough to put murder 2 on the table, but solid.

Really, really going to be a tough call.
__________________
You aren't worth the water in my spit but, maybe, just maybe, you're worth the lead in my shotgun.
JoeRedskin is offline  
Old 07-12-2013, 01:15 PM   #933
Contains football related knowledge
 
JoeRedskin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Second Star On The Right
Age: 52
Posts: 9,302
Re: Trayvon Martin Case

Great line by prosecution: "This case is not about standing your ground, it's about staying in your car."
__________________
You aren't worth the water in my spit but, maybe, just maybe, you're worth the lead in my shotgun.
JoeRedskin is offline  
Old 07-12-2013, 01:20 PM   #934
Gamebreaker
 
Chico23231's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Richmond, VA
Age: 38
Posts: 13,570
Re: Trayvon Martin Case

Is Joe now leaning towards a guilty verdict?
__________________
“Nobody’s going to be handed a job; not my standpoint, and I know Jay feels that way and I know Bruce feels the same way. You have to earn it. That’s what the NFL is about. Prove to me that you deserve to be on the field,’ and that’s the way it has to be in the NFL.”- McC
Chico23231 is offline  
Old 07-12-2013, 01:29 PM   #935
New HC, new hope!
 
RedskinRat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: I'm in LA, trick!
Posts: 8,700
Re: Trayvon Martin Case

Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeRedskin View Post
Great line by prosecution: "This case is not about standing your ground, it's about staying in your car."
Please remember that the person requesting that Zimmerman stay in his car had no authority to do so.

If you've repeatedly been let down by LE why would you not do the job you've volunteered to do?
RedskinRat is offline  
Old 07-12-2013, 01:34 PM   #936
New HC, new hope!
 
RedskinRat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: I'm in LA, trick!
Posts: 8,700
Re: Trayvon Martin Case

Good redux on CNN right now.
RedskinRat is offline  
Old 07-12-2013, 01:36 PM   #937
Contains football related knowledge
 
JoeRedskin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Second Star On The Right
Age: 52
Posts: 9,302
Re: Trayvon Martin Case

Joe is very much on the fence. B/c I am on the fence, personally, I have to say not guilty.

Strong closing by the prosecution, not the defense's best work. Still, the trial was 12 days. Closing impressions will last for the first hour or so of deliberations maybe the first two if the prosecution is lucky - then the jurors will get back to their preconceptions.

Staying with the not guilty - but will not be surprised by anything except having a verdict before tomorrow late afternoon/early evening at the earliest.
__________________
You aren't worth the water in my spit but, maybe, just maybe, you're worth the lead in my shotgun.
JoeRedskin is offline  
Old 07-12-2013, 01:50 PM   #938
Contains football related knowledge
 
JoeRedskin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Second Star On The Right
Age: 52
Posts: 9,302
Re: Trayvon Martin Case

Quote:
Originally Posted by RedskinRat View Post
Please remember that the person requesting that Zimmerman stay in his car had no authority to do so.

If you've repeatedly been let down by LE why would you not do the job you've volunteered to do?
Yup. What you say is true and I agree. Still, a very good and concise tagline that will likely resonate with some of the jurors.
__________________
You aren't worth the water in my spit but, maybe, just maybe, you're worth the lead in my shotgun.
JoeRedskin is offline  
Old 07-12-2013, 01:54 PM   #939
New HC, new hope!
 
RedskinRat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: I'm in LA, trick!
Posts: 8,700
Re: Trayvon Martin Case

Prosecution - "This is not about race"....but Trayvon and his friend sure as **** don't like creepy-assed crackers.

**** sake!
RedskinRat is offline  
Old 07-12-2013, 01:58 PM   #940
Playmaker
 
HailGreen28's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 3,115
Re: Trayvon Martin Case

Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeRedskin View Post
Yup. What you say is true and I agree. Still, a very good and concise tagline that will likely resonate with some of the jurors.
Yeah, and what gets me is like you and RR say: No, legally it's not about staying in your car at all. Where did we get to the point where getting out of your car means you deserve to be beaten up? I'm not saying Martin attacked Zimmerman for that, but that's exactly what some people here have said they would do, and that's totally wrong and they should go to jail themselves if they actually do attack someone under those circumstances.

To hear a prosecutor talk along those lines was unbelievable to me. "Is that all they have at that point?", I was thinking.

Last edited by HailGreen28; 07-12-2013 at 02:05 PM.
HailGreen28 is offline  
Old 07-12-2013, 01:58 PM   #941
New HC, new hope!
 
RedskinRat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: I'm in LA, trick!
Posts: 8,700
Re: Trayvon Martin Case

Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeRedskin View Post
Yup. What you say is true and I agree. Still, a very good and concise tagline that will likely resonate with some of the jurors.
Not sure if you caught the TV coverage last night but (I think) CNN had their quasi-jury and they were clearly split along racial lines. Some of the personal comments were utterly ridiculous.

My concern is that the jurors are mouth-breathers, I hope not.
RedskinRat is offline  
Old 07-12-2013, 02:18 PM   #942
Gamebreaker
 
Chico23231's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Richmond, VA
Age: 38
Posts: 13,570
Re: Trayvon Martin Case

Quote:
Originally Posted by RedskinRat View Post
Prosecution - "This is not about race"....but Trayvon and his friend sure as **** don't like creepy-assed crackers.

**** sake!
*sigh*
__________________
“Nobody’s going to be handed a job; not my standpoint, and I know Jay feels that way and I know Bruce feels the same way. You have to earn it. That’s what the NFL is about. Prove to me that you deserve to be on the field,’ and that’s the way it has to be in the NFL.”- McC
Chico23231 is offline  
Old 07-12-2013, 02:34 PM   #943
Registered User
 
saden1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Seattle
Age: 35
Posts: 10,069
Re: Trayvon Martin Case

Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeRedskin View Post
Yup. What you say is true and I agree. Still, a very good and concise tagline that will likely resonate with some of the jurors.
They may not but it shows Zimmerman getting reasonableness in real-time. Not to mention the community's neighborhood watch protocol.

Last edited by saden1; 07-12-2013 at 02:43 PM.
saden1 is offline  
Old 07-12-2013, 02:49 PM   #944
New HC, new hope!
 
RedskinRat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: I'm in LA, trick!
Posts: 8,700
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chico23231 View Post
*sigh*
Asthma? You should get an inhaler.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2
RedskinRat is offline  
Old 07-12-2013, 03:24 PM   #945
Contains football related knowledge
 
JoeRedskin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Second Star On The Right
Age: 52
Posts: 9,302
Re: Trayvon Martin Case

To me, as always, it depends on how seriously the jury takes the presumption of innocence charge. If every fact for which there is not direct or immediate circumstantial evidence is presumed to be in GZ's favor or presumed unproven, I just don't see how a jury could convict.

On the other hand, they don't do so, and allow certain prosecutorial assumptions to stand (key being that (1) TM was either in imminent fear of physical harm before attacking GZ or (2) that TZ initiated the fight plus a host of assumptions relating to the self-defense issue). Then they may very well let it stand.


** When I say "immediate circumstantial evidence", I mean:
(1) "In a forest filled with deer, I saw deer tracks on a path. At the end of the tracks, I saw a deer. Although I didn't see it make the tracks, I assume the deer standing at the end of the tracks is the deer who made the tracks leading up to them"; or,
(2) "In an area filled with deer, a field is fully enclosed on the first of the month. At the time of the enclosure, an inspection was done and there is direct evidence that there were no deer in the field when it was enclosed. People have been allowed to place deer in the enclosure but, since its enclosure, a video camera at the sole entrance verifies that only one deer has ever been placed in the field. The enclosure was inspected immediately after I visited it, and it is intact and has never been repaired, Therefore even though I didn't see the tracks being made, I assume that the tracks I saw when I visited the field on the 15th were made by the only deer placed in the field".

As compared to:
(1) "I saw deer tracks leading down a path in the woods then they disappearred but a twenty yards down the path, I saw a deer. I assumed that deer is the one that made the tracks I saw"; or
(2) "A field is fully enclosed on the 1st, no inspection was done, but the owner believes no deer were in the enclosure because he saw none as constructed the enclosure. Although others have access to the field and are permitted to place their deer in the field, he states is the only person to do so and he has placed only one deer in the field since its enclosure. He inspected the enclosure after I visited the field on the 15th and it was intact and had never been repaired. On the day of my visit I saw only one deer. Therefore even though I didn't see the tracks being made, I assume that the tracks I saw when I visited the field on the 15th were made by the deer the owner placed in the field.


The more little holes you fill with assumption and inference, the more and more you risk ignoring the presumption.
__________________
You aren't worth the water in my spit but, maybe, just maybe, you're worth the lead in my shotgun.
JoeRedskin is offline  
Closed Thread

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On



All times are GMT -4. The time now is 07:58 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2015, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site is not officially affiliated with the Washington Redskins or the NFL.
Page generated in 0.30744 seconds with 9 queries

Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.2.0 RC5

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25