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Trayvon Martin Case

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Old 07-12-2013, 03:52 PM   #946
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Re: Trayvon Martin Case

Quote:
Originally Posted by saden1 View Post
They may not but it shows Zimmerman getting reasonableness in real-time. Not to mention the community's neighborhood watch protocol.
Reasonableness IS NOT the standard for manslaughter. Here is the instruction given:

Quote:
To prove the crime of Manslaughter, the State must prove the following two elements beyond a reasonable doubt:

1. Trayvon Martin is dead.

2. George Zimmerman intentionally committed an act or acts that caused the death of Trayvon Martin.

George Zimmerman cannot be guilty of manslaughter by committing a merely negligent act or if the killing was either justifiable or excusable homicide:

Each of us has a duty to act reasonably toward others. If there is a violation of that duty, without any conscious intention to harm, that violation is negligence.
Emphasis mine.

The assertion that (1) getting out of his car against the instructions of a dispatcher; and (2) in violation of protocols -- is unreasonable is not enough to convict for the crime of manslaughter [although it may be enough in a civil wrongful death tort claim].

Rather, for a conviction you must assume - b/c there is no evidence one way or the other on this - that he had a conscience intent to cause harm. The closest thing to direct evidence on this point is GZ's comment "these **** always get away". For guilt, you must presume from that statement that GZ intended to cause harm. While I agree that is a reasonable assumption, there are three or four other reasonable assumptions which I ran through several pages ago when Chico and discussed this specific point. If you take the presumption of innoncence seriously, you cannot presume the necessary state of mind unless the State proves that it is the only reasonable assumption. (i.e.- the State's evidence eliminates all other reasonable assumptions).

I just don't see that. To me, it takes a lot of assumptions contrary to the presumption of innocence to read what was in GZ's mind that night and to get from a level general frustration to an intention to cause harm. [I mean really, if he had the "conscious intention to harm", why not approach with the gun drawn? If there was evidence of that, whole 'nother story.]
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Old 07-12-2013, 04:53 PM   #947
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Re: Trayvon Martin Case

whether a dispatcher's instruction is an official order or martin's past history or zimmerman's past dispatch calls, etc are all immaterial imo and you all are getting lost in the sauce to the central issue:

Was zimmerman in actual and reasonable fear for his life?

EMT said zimmerman's injuries werent life threatening.

having injuries that would make you "concerned for your medical safety" doesnt rise to the level of life threatening injuries imo.

you cant shoot someone because you are losing a fist fight.

the prosecutions apparent inability to draw a clear picture and the defense attorney's ability to color outside the lines has made for an unclear picture ....

so i havent seen anything to change my mind that its going to be man 1. but i have been paying attention to this thread about the trial and not the actual trial so my opinion is gut instinct.
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Old 07-12-2013, 05:07 PM   #948
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Re: Trayvon Martin Case

It's death or great bodily harm.

EMT said that a person on their back with GZ's injuries would "probably" be in "fear for their medical safety".

Direct evidence that he was on the ground with Martin on top with "flailing arms", had a blood running down his throat, evidence of his head striking the concrete more than once (certainly no conclusive evidence it ONLY struck once - assumptions go to GZ favor), no visible injuries to TM evidencing even a single blow landed by GZ and GZ screaming for help.

Again, a perfectly reasonable inference - to me - is that he wasn't "losing a fight", he was being given a beat down with reckless abandon with no help in sight. To me, if true, sounds like reasonable fear of great bodily harm.

And to be fair, both sides colored outside the lines.
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Old 07-12-2013, 05:14 PM   #949
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Re: Trayvon Martin Case

Again, I am not saying your interpretation of the key moment is unreasonable OMT. It is certainly one take. Given the evidence and the need for more than one or two, less than airtight inferences (deer standing with tracks leading to it example), however, I think the presumption of innocence is a burden the prosecution just can't overcome beyond a reasonable doubt in this case.
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Old 07-12-2013, 05:21 PM   #950
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Re: Trayvon Martin Case

Also, I absolutely agree with you OMT - at the moment he fired the gun, it is manslaughter if he is not reasonably in fear of his life or great bodily harm.

It is the State (and saden1 and chico and others) saying the initial act of following is what evidences the necessary intent for manslaughter.
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Old 07-12-2013, 06:13 PM   #951
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Re: Trayvon Martin Case

Well I guess we can stop crying over Sean Taylor's death using your twisted (legal) logic. Clearly Sean was killed by the intruders who feared their own lives.
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Old 07-12-2013, 06:17 PM   #952
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Re: Trayvon Martin Case

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Originally Posted by RGIII View Post
Well I guess we can stop crying over Sean Taylor's death using your twisted (legal) logic. Clearly Sean was killed by the intruders who feared their own lives.
killing someone in the commission of a felony (B&E, home invasion, robbery) is a way different situation. not comparable
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Old 07-12-2013, 06:23 PM   #953
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Re: Trayvon Martin Case

If Sean would have killed them, than Stand your ground would have applied. Threshold of law is usually the doorway, window...once someone comes in your household without permission and intent to harm, they are fair game to be killed.
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Old 07-12-2013, 06:27 PM   #954
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chico23231 View Post
If Sean would have killed them, than Stand your ground would have applied. Threshold of law is usually the doorway, window...once someone comes in your household without permission and intent to harm, they are fair game to be killed.
Pretty much. Except "and intent to harm" isn't needed. It is presumed someone breaking into your home has an "intent to harm".
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Old 07-12-2013, 06:33 PM   #955
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Re: Trayvon Martin Case

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chico23231 View Post
killing someone in the commission of a felony (B&E, home invasion, robbery) is a way different situation. not comparable
Impersonating an officer is a crime. Now what?
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Old 07-12-2013, 06:33 PM   #956
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RGIII View Post
Well I guess we can stop crying over Sean Taylor's death using your twisted (legal) logic. Clearly Sean was killed by the intruders who feared their own lives.
Yes. Clearly to some here, the presumption of innocence we are ALL entitled to when accused of a crime is pretty "twisted (legal) logic".

Pitchforks and torches are so much easier and require much less thought.
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Old 07-12-2013, 06:35 PM   #957
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Re: Trayvon Martin Case

Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeRedskin View Post
Pretty much. Except "and intent to harm" isn't needed. It is presumed someone breaking into your home has an "intent to harm".
Not true.
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Old 07-12-2013, 06:38 PM   #958
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RGIII View Post
Impersonating an officer is a crime. Now what?
Really? You realize he wasn't even charged with that? That even the prosecution didn't once allege that's what he was doing?

Got your lynching rope all ready to go I take it.
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Old 07-12-2013, 06:39 PM   #959
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RGIII View Post
Not true.
That is powerful legal persuasiveness right there.
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Old 07-12-2013, 06:51 PM   #960
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Re: Trayvon Martin Case

Quote:
Originally Posted by CRedskinsRule View Post
That is powerful legal persuasiveness right there.
LOL, I know, right?

"RGIII" had me totally convinced at the bit about [breaking into someone's home and trying to bust down the bedroom door where that someone's girlfriend and baby daughter are] is the same as [following someone outdoors in a public area, then that someone is on top of you beating you up].

I can hardly wait to hear what "RGIII" thinks "impersonating a police officer" means.

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