Warpath  

Home | Forums | Salary Cap Info | Shop | Donate | Stay Connected




Go Back   Warpath > Off-Topic Discussion > Debating with the enemy


Trayvon Martin Case

Debating with the enemy


Closed Thread
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 03-27-2012, 04:45 PM   #121
MVP
 
DynamiteRave's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Washington DC
Age: 27
Posts: 11,851
Re: Trayvon Martin Case

Quote:
Originally Posted by RedskinRat View Post
Then it's the rule that allowed him to shoot someone that's wrong and that should be changed.

Just for clarity, I am not taking into account Zimmerman's judgment, mkay?
I agree with you on that. Or at least it needs to be modified so that there's some clarity on what accounts as "self defense". I mean it shouldn't be to the point of where the person has a knife to your throat to shoot them, but it also shouldn't be like, a bar fight scenario where its just 2 idiots brawling.

Hell, the whole rule should probably be done away with.
__________________
Establishment, establishment, you always know what's best.

"We're officially horrible." -RedskinRat

I'm a chick, damnit.
DynamiteRave is offline  

Advertisements
Old 03-27-2012, 04:49 PM   #122
New HC, new hope!
 
RedskinRat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: I'm in LA, trick!
Posts: 8,702
Re: Trayvon Martin Case

Quote:
Originally Posted by DynamiteRave View Post
Hell, the whole rule should probably be done away with.
I'd like to see how the law has been applied since its inception and see if it has created a 'Wild-West'. It would be tough to prove but like CCW it creates a more well-behaved populace as people aren't so sure who to eff with.
RedskinRat is offline  
Old 03-27-2012, 07:50 PM   #123
Playmaker
 
mlmdub130's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Woodbridge, VA
Age: 31
Posts: 3,159
Re: Trayvon Martin Case

Quote:
Originally Posted by DynamiteRave View Post
I agree with you on that. Or at least it needs to be modified so that there's some clarity on what accounts as "self defense". I mean it shouldn't be to the point of where the person has a knife to your throat to shoot them, but it also shouldn't be like, a bar fight scenario where its just 2 idiots brawling.

Hell, the whole rule should probably be done away with.
thats the biggest thing that can come away from this case. i feel like me and you are in the same boat in realizing that by the rule of the law zimmerman is probably not guilty, but we would both love to see him serve over a decade in prison. i am all for the right to bear arms and myself own 3 hand guns a rifle and a shotgun, and hate when jackasses like this give reasonable gun owners a bad name. laws like stand your ground make me cringe because of things like this. when i was in military police training we spent a ton of time on the use of force continum.

Quote:
Use of force continuum

Main article: Use of force continuum

The use of force may be standardized by a use of force continuum, which presents guidelines as to the degree of force appropriate in a given situation. One source identifies five very generalized steps, increasing from least use of force to greatest. It is only one side of the model, as it does not give the levels of subject resistance that merit the corresponding increases in force.[7] Each successive level of force is meant to describe an escalating series of actions an officer may take to resolve a situation, and the level of force used rises only when a lower level of force would be ineffective in dealing with the situation.[4]
1.Presence (using the effect of the presence of an authority figure on a subject)
2.Verbalization (commanding a subject)
3.Empty hand control (using empty hands to search, relieve weapons, immobilize, or otherwise control a subject)
4.Intermediate weapons (using non-lethal chemical, electronic or impact weapons on a subject)
5.Deadly Force (using any force likely to cause permanent injury or death to a subject)

Use of force continuums can be further broken down into much more specific and concrete units.
Use of force - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
__________________
"I don't think anybody should have regrets, especially me, ... You don't regret what you do in your life. If you do it, you do it for a reason."

ST21
mlmdub130 is offline  
Old 03-27-2012, 08:06 PM   #124
Playmaker
 
mlmdub130's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Woodbridge, VA
Age: 31
Posts: 3,159
Re: Trayvon Martin Case

Quote:
Originally Posted by mlmpetert View Post
A dispatcher, who happened to be a police officer, said "We dont need you to do that" in regards to Zimmerman indicating that he was following Martin. Thats a little different than a police officer telling Zimmerman not to pursue.

Zimmerman 911 Call Transcript – Trayvon Martin « Phoebe's Detention Room

I dont think Zimmerman had any idea that the dispatcher was a police officer. Also i think i heard FL law (maybe federal) says you dont have to adhere to anything your told over the phone from a police officer, 911 dispatcher, or anyone else. Its all advice, nothing official. Perhaps thats why the dispatcher said "we dont need you to do that" as opposed a command like "do not do that". Regardless, it seems by all accounts Zimmerman stopped following Martin at the advice of the dispatcher. Unfortunately the media usually ends the recording prematurely and makes it sounds like Zimmerman kept going after Martin.

The trouble i have in siding with Zimmerman is that he got out of his truck and followed Martin in the first place, when there was no reason to believe Martin had yet committed a crime, and more specifically a crime against Zimmerman or his family.

I was a victim of violent crime and one surprising thing i learned is that preceding separate acts cant be used against you. The example is if you see someone driving recklessly, then they leave your sights, and moments later you see that car involved in an accident, your previous account of them driving recklessly cant be used against them. The thought is you have no idea if they stopped speeding or driving recklessly immediately before the accident.

So they law may see what happened as 2 separate acts.

1) Zimmerman got out of his truck to follow Martin. At this point if he had encountered Martin and the result was the same, I fully believe Zimmerman would be guilty of manslaughter at a very minimum and deserves to spend time in jail. But he didn’t encounter Martin at this point and more importantly when told to stop he stopped. And he stopped long enough to give the dispatcher his information so that police could assist him. And according to Zimmerman he retreated to his suv.

Then:

2) Zimmerman was walking to his SUV and was confronted by Martin from behind and after they exchanged words Martin punched Zimmerman in the face breaking his noise and took him the ground and was slamming his head against the sidewalk. In the struggle and while under an reasonable impression that Martin had a gun or weaon he shot Martin in the chest.

So I think what people need to consider is; was Zimmerman acting in self defense specifically in the context of JUST the 2nd scenario. Sure I personally feel, like most of you probably do, that if not for Zimmerman getting out of his suv Martin would be alive, therefore Zimmerman was in the wrong and provoked the actions of Martin. But as wrong as Zimmerman was to get out of his car, he did stop and retreated at which point Zimmerman would be justified more so to defend himself when attacked.

* This is based off of Zimmerman’s accounts which obviously may be false. But it does match up with his injuries and the accounts of some witnesses. Im just going off of reported information. Also this is my understanding of law, which makes it completely worthless….

Something else that I think will be a legal issue is the girlfriend’s account on the phone. It gets into that whole hearsay issue. I learned that you generally (its tricky) cant reveal something someone told you. So if a witness called 911 because her husband told her to because one guy just shot another guy outside, she cant say that. There may be precedent to phone conversation, but the girlfriend may only be limited to describing what she heard but not what was said.

Also the gated community thing might complicated things further. I believe it becomes a little fuzzy about what is/isn’t considered his homestead. That combined with the knowledge he likely picked up as a neighborhood watchman of who does/doesn’t live within the restricted community and their common visitors may give him more rights in approaching a visitor of the neighborhood.
given all that i am just looking at the case from a far

1. you have a 17y/o kid leaving a convienence store and heading somewhere.

2. then you have a 29 y/o man who is a neighborhood watch activist who is armed with a gun start tailing the 17y/o.

3. at some point there is a physical struggle and the end result is the 17y/o being shot in the chest.

anyway you cut it up to me thats murder. the enitre incident was incited by the 29y/o, and an inccocent 17y/o kid is dead. may the kid have been a gang banger maybe. could he just be a young kid trying to be a thug on the internet maybe. i know sure as shit thats what my dumbass 18 y/o cousin does. i don't know what either of their back stories are and don't really care. a 17y/o unarmed kid was shot by a 29y/o armed man. but at the end of the day thats just my opinion and you and i both know how f-ed up the legal system is, even if the defendant is 100% guilty he could get away with. shame is in this case he probaly was within the rule of the law.
__________________
"I don't think anybody should have regrets, especially me, ... You don't regret what you do in your life. If you do it, you do it for a reason."

ST21
mlmdub130 is offline  
Old 03-27-2012, 08:20 PM   #125
Living Legend
 
skinsfaninok's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Oklahoma City (Originally from Biloxi, Ms)
Age: 27
Posts: 16,094
Re: Trayvon Martin Case

Quote:
Originally Posted by mlmdub130 View Post
given all that i am just looking at the case from a far

1. you have a 17y/o kid leaving a convienence store and heading somewhere.

2. then you have a 29 y/o man who is a neighborhood watch activist who is armed with a gun start tailing the 17y/o.

3. at some point there is a physical struggle and the end result is the 17y/o being shot in the chest.

anyway you cut it up to me thats murder. the enitre incident was incited by the 29y/o, and an inccocent 17y/o kid is dead. may the kid have been a gang banger maybe. could he just be a young kid trying to be a thug on the internet maybe. i know sure as shit thats what my dumbass 18 y/o cousin does. i don't know what either of their back stories are and don't really care. a 17y/o unarmed kid was shot by a 29y/o armed man. but at the end of the day thats just my opinion and you and i both know how f-ed up the legal system is, even if the defendant is 100% guilty he could get away with. shame is in this case he probaly was within the rule of the law.

Yeah I've tried to go on both sides here but I'm starting to agree, it seems like this dude wanted to hurt Martin, maybe not kill him but IMO become the Neighborhood "Hero" and it went to far. He had absolutely no right to follow him, I don't care what he looks like and also if Martin started running away he was obviously scared, maybe he thought it was the cops or maybe he just felt threatened.
__________________
THUNDER UP

"if you're good at something, never do it for free"- The Joker

skinsfaninok is offline  
Old 03-27-2012, 09:26 PM   #126
The Starter
 
SolidSnake84's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Stephens City, VA
Posts: 1,860
Re: Trayvon Martin Case

I've taken in everything i can on this case, and can't really handle anymore. The media wants to make it about nothing but race, and they insist on using a 4 year old photo of the victim for the sole purpose of trying to drub up sympathy and invoke strong feelings when otherwise there would be none. I hate that everything takes the race issue.

The evidence is beginning to stack against Martin, thats a fact. No matter how many times they say he was only 17 years old going up against a grown man, nobody seems to care that this 17 year old outweighed Zimmerman and was physically surperior to him. 9 times out of ten Zimmerman would get whooped by him.

Witnesses have seen Martin banging Zimmerman's head on the sidewalk. That's attempted murder there but nobody gives two rats asses because all they can fascinate on is the 4 year old photo of some poor innocent little baby.

There will never be a right or wrong here. I see wrongdoing on both Zimmerman & Martin's part.
__________________
Time to nut up or shut up
SolidSnake84 is offline  
Old 03-27-2012, 09:34 PM   #127
Registered User
 
firstdown's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: chesapeake, va
Age: 50
Posts: 15,818
Re: Trayvon Martin Case

Quote:
Originally Posted by mlmdub130 View Post
given all that i am just looking at the case from a far

1. you have a 17y/o kid leaving a convienence store and heading somewhere.

2. then you have a 29 y/o man who is a neighborhood watch activist who is armed with a gun start tailing the 17y/o.

3. at some point there is a physical struggle and the end result is the 17y/o being shot in the chest.

anyway you cut it up to me thats murder. the enitre incident was incited by the 29y/o, and an inccocent 17y/o kid is dead. may the kid have been a gang banger maybe. could he just be a young kid trying to be a thug on the internet maybe. i know sure as shit thats what my dumbass 18 y/o cousin does. i don't know what either of their back stories are and don't really care. a 17y/o unarmed kid was shot by a 29y/o armed man. but at the end of the day thats just my opinion and you and i both know how f-ed up the legal system is, even if the defendant is 100% guilty he could get away with. shame is in this case he probaly was within the rule of the law.
So now he is an activist?
firstdown is offline  
Old 03-27-2012, 10:17 PM   #128
Living Legend
 
skinsfaninok's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Oklahoma City (Originally from Biloxi, Ms)
Age: 27
Posts: 16,094
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolidSnake84 View Post
I've taken in everything i can on this case, and can't really handle anymore. The media wants to make it about nothing but race, and they insist on using a 4 year old photo of the victim for the sole purpose of trying to drub up sympathy and invoke strong feelings when otherwise there would be none. I hate that everything takes the race issue.

The evidence is beginning to stack against Martin, thats a fact. No matter how many times they say he was only 17 years old going up against a grown man, nobody seems to care that this 17 year old outweighed Zimmerman and was physically surperior to him. 9 times out of ten Zimmerman would get whooped by him.

Witnesses have seen Martin banging Zimmerman's head on the sidewalk. That's attempted murder there but nobody gives two rats asses because all they can fascinate on is the 4 year old photo of some poor innocent little baby.

There will never be a right or wrong here. I see wrongdoing on both Zimmerman & Martin's part.
I don't disagree w you but Zimmerman had no right chasing Martin and especially with a weapon.
__________________
THUNDER UP

"if you're good at something, never do it for free"- The Joker

skinsfaninok is offline  
Old 03-28-2012, 01:03 AM   #129
Playmaker
 
los panda's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: los angeles, ca
Age: 29
Posts: 4,051
Re: Trayvon Martin Case

johnny stabbed and killed the soc in self defense, ponyboy was nearly drowned. but the socs were the aggressors in that scenario
__________________
7 9 21 28 33 42 43 44 49 65 70 81
los panda is offline  
Old 03-28-2012, 05:41 AM   #130
Contains football related knowledge
 
JoeRedskin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Second Star On The Right
Age: 51
Posts: 8,497
Re: Trayvon Martin Case

Just read something else. In Florida, apparently, the police cannot arrest someone who asserts a self-defense claim unless they can prove the claim is without basis. If they do arrest someone who asserts such a claim and that claim is later upheld in court, the police will be responsible for civil penalties, lost wages and other damages.

In light of that, Zimmerman's assertion that T. Martin attacked him, combined with the lack of evidence showing Zimmerman started the physical altercation and Zimmerman's injuries, the failure to arrest Zimmerman is consistent with the laws in place.

Statutes & Constitution :View Statutes : Online Sunshine

For those saying "Zimmerman should not have followed Martin after the dispatcher said it was unneccessary." Yup. Probably shouldn't have. However, while it may have been bad judgment, it was not illegal. Zimmerman had just as much right to walk (or run on) the public streets of his neighborhood as did Martin. [I live in a neighborhood that has had many break-ins and often observe young men walking down the street blatantly looking in car windows and testing car handles. I will go outside and follow them for a block or two and snap their picture on my phone to make sure they know people are watching. As long as I stay on public property, I am absolutely within my rights to do so].

It's a bad end with no real proof as to whether the use of deadly force was legally or illegally used. A tragedy all around with many lives unalterably ruined. It is not the first time such a thing has happened, and, unfortunately, it will not be the last.
__________________
You aren't worth the water in my spit but, maybe, just maybe, you're worth the lead in my shotgun.
JoeRedskin is offline  
Old 03-28-2012, 05:57 AM   #131
MVP
 
mooby's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: NoVa
Age: 26
Posts: 11,818
Re: Trayvon Martin Case

Quote:
Originally Posted by firstdown View Post
So now he is an activist?
I think you're just nitpicking here.
mooby is offline  
Old 03-28-2012, 06:24 AM   #132
Contains football related knowledge
 
JoeRedskin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Second Star On The Right
Age: 51
Posts: 8,497
Re: Trayvon Martin Case

^^ Maybe so. At the same time, it's little characterizations such as this that people have been throwing out since the beginning that appeal to feelings as opposed to facts. He's been characterized as a vigilante, a racist, a wannabe-hero. To me, all this is just stuff that gets in the way of analyzing the facts and is based off a lot of conjecture that's more spin than reality.
__________________
You aren't worth the water in my spit but, maybe, just maybe, you're worth the lead in my shotgun.

Last edited by JoeRedskin; 03-28-2012 at 07:28 AM.
JoeRedskin is offline  
Old 03-28-2012, 07:57 AM   #133
Playmaker
 
mlmpetert's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Richmond
Posts: 3,257
Re: Trayvon Martin Case

Quote:
Originally Posted by los panda View Post
johnny stabbed and killed the soc in self defense, ponyboy was nearly drowned. but the socs were the aggressors in that scenario
I havent seen the movie since 8th grade english class but diddnt johnny boy stright up murder at least one of socs?
__________________
mlmpetert is offline  
Old 03-28-2012, 09:09 AM   #134
New HC, new hope!
 
RedskinRat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: I'm in LA, trick!
Posts: 8,702
Re: Trayvon Martin Case

Quote:
Originally Posted by mooby View Post
I think you're just nitpicking here.
Mooby, it's all part of the incendiary and mood-setting language that's being used.

Use Occam's Razor, lex parsimoniae, see how the scenario looks when stripped of all the additional BS.
RedskinRat is offline  
Old 03-28-2012, 10:41 AM   #135
MVP
 
Chico23231's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Richmond, VA
Age: 37
Posts: 11,121
Re: Trayvon Martin Case

Didnt know this until this morning, Zimmerman has had 2 arrest due to violence. 2005 assulting a police officer and 2007 domestic violence and had a restraining order taken out on him by an x girlfriend. So he has a violent history and a pattern of violence. Is this the type of person you want walking around your neighborhood?

This piece of shit needs to be locked up for a long long time period

Martin, on the other hand, had no criminal history or arrest, but is now being painted as some thug? This ****ing world is losing its mind.
__________________
@RSherman_25 just make sure you stay in Seattle cause without that pass rush you are who we thought you were. 5th rd PK no speed good hands

— DeAngelo Hall (@DeAngeloHall23) March 14, 2014
Chico23231 is online now  
Closed Thread

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On



All times are GMT -4. The time now is 09:42 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site is not officially affiliated with the Washington Redskins or the NFL.
Page generated in 0.38900 seconds with 9 queries

Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.2.0 RC5

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25