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Republicans rally against 'war on religious freedom'

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Old 04-04-2012, 11:53 AM   #16
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Re: Republicans rally against 'war on religious freedom'

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Well I'm not very religious but an argument could be made that ever sense religion has been removed from more and more things the more problems we have been having.
Like what? The recent massacres at a Christian school? Some people are crazy, and bad things happen. Between open access to things like automatic weapons, bomb directions, etc -- more bad things will happen. Before people this disgruntled may have been too stupid or ignorant to figure out how to channel their rage, now the internet makes that simple. In addition to having more tools to do terrible things, media saturation means that more of these get reported nationally, and get more time on TV. Terrible things have always happened, we just hear about them more now.

Take a look at Europe and Scandinavia. These countries boast some of the best schools, healthcare, standard of livings, crime rates, and economies in the world -- and religion is kept far away from schools and politics. It is a personal choice there, not a political one.

To say "Since religion has been taken out of X it has been worse" is essentially ignoring all of the other factors that go into the shift of having more issues.
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Old 04-04-2012, 12:11 PM   #17
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Re: Republicans rally against 'war on religious freedom'

There's a distinction between religion and faith or having faith, more specifically. Though the two are kissing cousins -- religion and faith-- the former has to do with the systematic teachings of the church or a particular denomination, which are supremely important. Whereas the latter is a personal, devotion to God that manifests itself through deeds, actions, and words. So when people make the argument that they don't believe in God because of religion it's almost like saying, well, I Google mapped my morning commute to my new job, but I know of a better route because there's heavy construction happening on 12th St. Well that's all fine and dandy, but just because you chose another direction, doesn't negate the fact that route A still exists for the benefit of thousands of daily commuters. And just because people are turned off by religion or the church or put off by some scandal, doesn't mean that organization is irrelevant or isn't a holy institution.

On the other hand...

One can be very religious, have all the trappings of a Christian, go to church regularly and still not have faith or display affection and devotion to God. In fact, Jesus often clashed with the Pharisees over the strict doctrinal interpretation of scriptures, which were often too onerous drove a wedge between true believers and the religious crowd. They viewed the scripture as a collection of rules, ordinances, and precepts that would produce righteous behavior or make one holy. Christ didn't come to make us religious or give us faith for that matter, but rather grace. Something we can neither earn or deserve, but God and only God bestows and gives freely to all. I heard a wise man put it this way; religion is man trying to get to God, grace is God coming down to man.
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Old 04-04-2012, 12:19 PM   #18
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Re: Republicans rally against 'war on religious freedom'

Before someone posts, but 12th if I go a different route and still get to my destination, why does it matter? Well that's an entirely different discussion.
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Old 04-04-2012, 12:29 PM   #19
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Re: Republicans rally against 'war on religious freedom'

As someone said to me near the end of my lengthy athiestic phase - Christ came to take away our sins, not our minds.
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Old 04-04-2012, 01:14 PM   #20
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Re: Republicans rally against 'war on religious freedom'

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It's cute, trying to make me feel bad like I'm some religious extremist. Keep trying buddy.
I'm not trying to make you feel bad, I am just pointing out the desirability of the existence you described. Infinite existence with infinite happiness doesn't sound too appealing...maybe you can enlighten me as to why it is and should be?
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Old 04-04-2012, 01:17 PM   #21
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Re: Republicans rally against 'war on religious freedom'

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Lemme guess... Atheist?
No, that would require that I be able to disprove the existence of god. For all we know we are all in the Matrix, an RPG, or someone's mind.
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Old 04-04-2012, 01:31 PM   #22
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Re: Republicans rally against 'war on religious freedom'

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I'm not trying to make you feel bad, I am just pointing out the desirability of the existence you described. Infinite existence with infinite happiness doesn't sound too appealing...maybe you can enlighten me as to why it is and should be?
Well good, because you're not making me feel bad. My feelings on the subject are mine alone, and I'm not trying to force you to understand the reasoning behind it. And tbh, I don't feel like trying to make you understand my reasoning. Long story short, it's not happening lol.
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Old 04-04-2012, 02:00 PM   #23
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Re: Republicans rally against 'war on religious freedom'

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Well good, because you're not making me feel bad. My feelings on the subject are mine alone, and I'm not trying to force you to understand the reasoning behind it. And tbh, I don't feel like trying to make you understand my reasoning. Long story short, it's not happening lol.
Whatever makes you feel good...May the gods bless you, your friends and your family with eternal happiness.
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Old 04-04-2012, 02:06 PM   #24
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Re: Republicans rally against 'war on religious freedom'

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Whatever makes you feel good...May the gods bless you, your friends and your family with eternal happiness.
Thank you, and I hope whatever your vision for heaven works out for you too.
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Old 04-04-2012, 02:44 PM   #25
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Re: Republicans rally against 'war on religious freedom'

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No, that would require that I be able to disprove the existence of god.
No, it does not. It's up to the person making the claim to post proof. Extraordinary claims will, of course, require extraordinary proof.

Atheists are saying we don't believe the claims that there is a god or gods.
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Old 04-04-2012, 06:39 PM   #26
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Re: Republicans rally against 'war on religious freedom'

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No, it does not. It's up to the person making the claim to post proof. Extraordinary claims will, of course, require extraordinary proof.

Atheists are saying we don't believe the claims that there is a god or gods.
I can claim the Sun is god and there it is giving us rays of light that keeps life going on this planet.

If you are going to put the burden of proof on believers to prove that god exists then you might want to also put similar burden on atheist on their extraordinary claim that we came from nothing. Atheist often ignore the implication of their claims out of convenience.

When you are dealing with god, existence and the universe it's difficult to be certain.
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Old 04-04-2012, 07:23 PM   #27
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Re: Republicans rally against 'war on religious freedom'

Nicely put saden1.
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Old 04-04-2012, 07:36 PM   #28
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Re: Republicans rally against 'war on religious freedom'

Either the first sub-atomic particle came from nothing or there was a pre-existing "creator" that caused it to come into existence. Either way, to me at least, it's mind boggling.

If you believe either to be an equally likely possibility RR, then I concede no proof is required on your part. However, if you assert one as more likely than the other, I would ask your basis for that belief.
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Old 04-04-2012, 07:37 PM   #29
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Re: Republicans rally against 'war on religious freedom'

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To prove the existence of God you disprove the need for faith. If God's existence could be "proven" through forensic evidence, then his existence couldn't be questioned and the choice to follow him/her/it would be removed. In essence, we would be nothing morre than pets of an benign omipotent being. Very simply, that is not the God I in whom I believe (I have been through this before but can't find the posts).

Fine, belief in an entity that escapes definition of finite minds is the same as Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny. How could I be so blind?

As for the rest, aethist or religious, stupid is as stupid does. Judge not lest you be judged and he (or in this case, she) who can discern the ultimate truth underlying existence is either a far wiser person than I ever will be or an idiot.

For those who choose not to believe, fine. It is your choice, insulting the intelligence of all those with faith strikes me as the same intolerance of which you complain.
In the absence of science, there will always be something we fill that void with, and a all supreme being is generally what people tend to fill it with.


I think you took what I said and ran with it. Insulting the intelligence of those that have faith? Hardly. Putting their intelligence in perspective. Most definitely. Again, most people that believe in man made fairy tales are ridiculed and made fun of, even by some of the same people that also believe in a fairy tale themselves. (aka..christians) The fact is, both Santa Claus and the Bible were man made creations, based of some truth and history. Why is faith in one real, but not the other? There is no distinction regardless of what anybody thinks.

Intolerant? I think you are barking up the wrong tree with that accusation. In fact, I'm probably the most tolerant person you'll come across when it comes to ones beliefs. My general rule of thumb is if it doesn't affect me, or harm others in any way, I'm fine with whatever you want to do.

I don't look down on religious people, nor do I shun them. I grew up in a Christian home, and went to a private Christian school the majority of my youth. I know the Bible, I understand the belief as I used to believe and practice it myself. I sit here and still laugh at your accusation of intolerant, when my best friend actually believes the zombie apocalypse is coming. Yes, he believes the dead will rise (either by god or man made chemicals) at some point in time. Now as ignorant as this sounds, he still remains to be my best friend and I will always have his back.

Believing in god doesn't make you stupid, but it's hard to not question ones decision making when their lives and actions are based around something that may simply not exist. Believe it or not, some people would call this psychotic if it involved something other than "god". (aka..invisible friends)

I don't look down on either person. Choose to believe in Santa Claus or God. Doesn't make any difference, but lets not call one guy crazy and the other one enlightened.
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Old 04-04-2012, 07:47 PM   #30
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Re: Republicans rally against 'war on religious freedom'

Home | Neil deGrasse Tyson

You all should follow this guy. A astrophysicist, a brilliant mind and a absolute joy to listen to.

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