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North Carolina passes same-sex marriage ban

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Old 08-04-2012, 07:36 PM   #196
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Re: North Carolina passes same-sex marriage ban

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Originally Posted by mlmpetert View Post
Nerds?! Youre the one who, while reading a post from your computer, stood up and gave an entire round of applause to a post you agreed with. PLEASE tell me there were othere people around! Please!

Either way regardless of our differences i hope you had a happy bday!

Nothing wrong with being a nerd. I said it without any negative attached to it. I'm a nerd as well. I use "kids" as well.
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Old 08-04-2012, 07:51 PM   #197
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Re: North Carolina passes same-sex marriage ban

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Originally Posted by firstdown View Post
Really, you tell that to the people who spent hours upon hours organizing an event like those. We start 4 months prior to the golf outing getting it organized. Your just wrong and don't want to admitt it. Also I never injected god into this it was you.
*sigh*


What is it with you? Why is it so F'n hard to understand what I said? You take one statement, and turn it into something completely different that I didn't say nor implied.

Let me go over this one more time with you.

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Also, I find it sad that christians can go out of their way to support anti-gay measures, yet can't do the same for say...homeless people or other individuals in need. Which would you consider a pressing issue?
I even mentioned specifically the "waiting 3 hours in a line for chicken sandwich to support a homophobic individual" as a measure of "going out of your way.


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It wasn't to say that churches don't help the poor and needy, but I have NEVER EVER seen or heard about around the country where people waited in lines and went way out of their way to support the poor and needy.

SO again, can any of you religious people point out to me where the christians have united nationwide (much like they did here) for a cause to help the poor and homeless? Can you show me one instance where christians on a mass level waited 3 hours just to help out some poor guy or some homeless person?

I think I'm quite aware that christians and churches help the poor and needy, but never seen anything organized like what was done for Chick-fila to help the poor and needy. Your local BBQ and gold tournament isn't even remotely on the same level as what happened on August 1st.

FD, I realize that the few people involved with arranging the BBQ and golf tournament put in hard work, but the majority of the people showing up do so to eat and golf and that's about it. I've been to a number of of these events and did diddly squat. Guess what? My family holds a annual golf tournament to help fund scholarships for a church my grandmother attended. Sure there are about 10-15 people or so that put in a ton of work to market it, plan it, and execute it. This still isn't anything remotely what I'm referring to and you know it. Great so you got a handful of people busting their asses to get a BBQ and gold tournament. How about the rest of the people?

Stop taking my comments out of context and twisting them into something that I haven't said.
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Old 08-04-2012, 07:55 PM   #198
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Re: North Carolina passes same-sex marriage ban

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^ NCSkins is never wrong. NEVER
I admit when I'm wrong. However, I'm not wrong when you take something I said and twist it into something I have not and then act like I"m wrong. I'm still waiting for one of you guys so show me where the christians have united together (like they did for this chick-fila event) and support a worthy cause such as helping homeless or the needy. Any such event ever arranged? I'll be waiting.

I think the point was.(and still is) The churches can collectively get together to send their congregation down to chick-fila to support a bigot, yet they can't do the same for the homeless and needy?
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Old 08-05-2012, 08:54 AM   #199
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Re: North Carolina passes same-sex marriage ban

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I wonder id God is a Callaway man.

Ok , so when God is on the 18th green and about 12 to the hole and taps it,.....who does he pray to???
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Old 08-05-2012, 11:23 PM   #200
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Re: North Carolina passes same-sex marriage ban

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By the way when did I ever say I was religious.
You're not religous from what I gather. I should have stated. "Can any of you religious (or non)......" That was a my error for not adding that in.


In fact, I think you may be the first conservative I've ever come across that wasn't religious. (my impression of you from what you've said before anyways)
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Old 08-06-2012, 10:57 AM   #201
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Re: North Carolina passes same-sex marriage ban

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You came across (and I don't think by accident) sounding like religious people don't do anything to help the poor or the needy and that's 100% false. They do plenty day after day it just does not involve standing in a line for 3 hours.

That wasn't, nor ever intended to be the implication from what I said. I grew up in a christian home, went to a christian school so I understand what the christian community does. We were talking about something on a national level that was coordinated by the mass christian community, and hence I made my comment about them going out of their way to do the same for something more worthy.
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Old 08-06-2012, 04:10 PM   #202
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Re: North Carolina passes same-sex marriage ban

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Originally Posted by Daseal View Post
The difference that you seem to be missing, is marriage isn't forcing a single thing on the churches. It is creating more freedom for the individuals to make decisions, while others are trying to constrict freedom. The amount of time and money taken up by gay marriage is beyond crazy to me. Let them get married so that they can be viewed legally as one for things like healthcare, next-of-kin, etc type decisions. It doesn't affect anyone in a negative manner if we do this. If this went live today, no one here (unless you're a gay person that gets married) has their life changed.

Most gay couples, and many non-gay couples, couldn't give half a shit if the 'church recognizes' their marriage. It's about the legal ramifications around not being married that matters; if this happens, non-gay couples need to have their title to the government changed as well. It is about fairness and consistency.

The church doesn't have to recognize marriage. Call it something else if you like -- as long as it fills the legal roles of a typical marriage. Your argument should have 0 credibility or influence on this decision because the church, and their values, should not be weighed or factored in when it comes to making governmental decisions. No Christians are being forced to do anything, they're just trying to force others from having something.
I never said anything about the church being forced to recognize gay marriage. I said instead of the government deciding what the definition of marriage should be, get the government out of marriage completely and leave it up to the religious institutions to decide. That's pretty much where the sense of marriage came from in the first place. The gay community could have their own ceremony, and the straight, religious (and non-religious as well) could have whatever ceremony they wanted to have. This has gone on long enough anyway. You can't force either side to give up their stance, and getting the government involved is a waste of time and taxpayer money.
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Old 08-06-2012, 04:17 PM   #203
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Re: North Carolina passes same-sex marriage ban

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I said instead of the government deciding what the definition of marriage should be, get the government out of marriage completely and leave it up to the religious institutions to decide. That's pretty much where the sense of marriage came from in the first place. .
I suggest you read JR's post on the prior page about marriage, religion, and government.
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Old 08-06-2012, 04:32 PM   #204
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Re: North Carolina passes same-sex marriage ban

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Originally Posted by mlmpetert View Post
I think you are completely misreading Skinsguy's post. I dont think he said anything at all about churches. Hes saying remove the federal govt. from marriage all together. That a marriage, gay, straight, poly or anything else shouldnt be recognized by our government. Because why should it?

And i almost completely agree with him and i think skinsguy put it very well. But not the tax thing.

Everyone thinks theres some big benefit to getting married tax wise. There really isnt. There used to be back in the day (pre-70's) when the tax scale for 1 person was twice as steep as it was for 2 married people. But they changed that and made the tax scale much steeper for married people.
Thanks Mlmpetert. I honestly don't know exactly how great the tax thing is with marriage - I'll be finding out in the next few months..lol! You pretty much got what I was saying. Allow everyone the right to whatever insurance, estate, and tax (whatever that may be or may not be) rights that married people currently enjoy.

Only extending these "rights" to gay people is still discrimination. So, it's best to do away with state recognized marriages and allow anybody the opportunity to put whoever they want on their health insurance, their estate, their taxes, etc...whatever it is that married people have the benefit for. But, don't force a large amount of Americans, who are both religious and non-religious, to endorse, agree to, or accept in anyway ideology that goes against their core beliefs. Forcing people into accepting gay marriage is wrong. Plain and simple. One can use every word, every sense of hate he/she can think of to get them to change, and it will still be wrong to force a person to agree with a lifestyle that they just do not believe is right.

As far as the divorce courts, you're probably right about that. My thought process was since the state doesn't recognize the marriage, then there is no state issued marriage license, so there would be no need for state recognized divorces. I suppose the couple could still draw up their own contract, just like a business agreement, which could be disputed in a court of law.
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Old 08-06-2012, 04:42 PM   #205
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Re: North Carolina passes same-sex marriage ban

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Originally Posted by NC_Skins View Post
I suggest you read JR's post on the prior page about marriage, religion, and government.
I did. And as JR pointed out, with priests and ministers being appointed as officers of the state, then that connects government to religion, which is wrong. You, of all people, should be fighting to reverse this, not coax on even more government involvement.
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Old 08-07-2012, 09:58 PM   #206
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Re: North Carolina passes same-sex marriage ban

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Originally Posted by skinsguy View Post
Thanks Mlmpetert. I honestly don't know exactly how great the tax thing is with marriage - I'll be finding out in the next few months..lol! You pretty much got what I was saying. Allow everyone the right to whatever insurance, estate, and tax (whatever that may be or may not be) rights that married people currently enjoy.

Only extending these "rights" to gay people is still discrimination. So, it's best to do away with state recognized marriages and allow anybody the opportunity to put whoever they want on their health insurance, their estate, their taxes, etc...whatever it is that married people have the benefit for. But, don't force a large amount of Americans, who are both religious and non-religious, to endorse, agree to, or accept in anyway ideology that goes against their core beliefs. Forcing people into accepting gay marriage is wrong. Plain and simple. One can use every word, every sense of hate he/she can think of to get them to change, and it will still be wrong to force a person to agree with a lifestyle that they just do not believe is right.

As far as the divorce courts, you're probably right about that. My thought process was since the state doesn't recognize the marriage, then there is no state issued marriage license, so there would be no need for state recognized divorces. I suppose the couple could still draw up their own contract, just like a business agreement, which could be disputed in a court of law.
I think you're taking it way too far. If I am understanding you, you wish to destroy/obliterate the right of two people to enter into a government sanctioned contract that permits the pooling of resources, promise of mutual lifetime support and the resultant sanctioning of that contract by the State. As with corporations and the laws relating their creation, existence and dissolution, the laws relating to the creation, operation and dissolution of the marriage "contract" are an essential part of our civil society and have evolved over the course of time distinct from the sacramental rite of marriage. To say that this form of contract can no longer exist is far too simplistic. To remove this form of contract creates a legal void contrary to the evolution of our legal system and, further, represents a radical change to our fundamental legal philosophy [In a far, far too simplistic nutshell, Marxism espoused the concept that such contracts were bourgeous creations to be disposed of so that any artificial "familial bonds" would go the way of capitalism].

There is great societal value in allowing two individuals the ability to provide mutual support such that they turn to each other, rather than the govt., for their primary support and for civil society to say what legal rights, liabilities and benefits should govern such contracts. Rules governing the formation, operation and dissolution of such contracts exist b/c, generally and from a societal point of view, the underlying nature of the contract creates a benefit for all members of the society not just the parties entering into the contract.

My point has always been simply that the traditional contract of marriage has, within our civil justice system, diverged from the sacramental rite of marriage and different concepts and principles now govern each. As such, the form of the contract should remain but it should be clearly delinated from the religious sacrament which developed along with it. Such contracts would still require a State sanction (just like the fomation of a corporation) and be appropriately witnessed - just not by a priest/minister.

Also, you say "Only extending these 'rights' to gay people is still discrimination." Sorry, we must mean different things when we say "discrimination". Extending the right to enter into the civil marriage contract and providing benefits based on the contract is only "discriminatory" when some are allowed to do so and others are not. Further, it is only illegal discrimination when the denial is based on race, religion, gender or some other immutable characteristic recognized at law as a "protected class". Thus, it is perfectly constitutional for the law to prohibit polygamous marriage contracts as long as no one is allowed to enter into them. The fact that people who enter into a particular type of contract receive particular benefits, however, is not a form of discrimination against those don't enter into the particualr contract and don't receive the benefits.
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Old 08-07-2012, 10:08 PM   #207
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Re: North Carolina passes same-sex marriage ban

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Originally Posted by skinsguy View Post
I did. And as JR pointed out, with priests and ministers being appointed as officers of the state, then that connects government to religion, which is wrong. You, of all people, should be fighting to reverse this, not coax on even more government involvement.
That was a single, significant point but not the thrust of my argument. My point, as I so cleverly summed up, is that it is time to separate the "right" to marry from the "rite" to marry. Neither need be destroyed - they just each need to be true to their own underlying structures: contracts = govt./laws; sacraments = churches/rites.
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Old 08-07-2012, 10:24 PM   #208
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Re: North Carolina passes same-sex marriage ban

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I feel like in 10-15 years we'll look back and say wow, I can't believe gay marriage was actually a big deal.
On a related point, I recently watched the movie Philadelphia for the first time (I generally don't watch "legal" movies often simply b/c I am constantly yelling "You can't do that" and "no, No, NOOO!!! That's so blatantly wrong!" at the screen).

While the movie may exagerate it to make a point, it is amazing to see the transformation, in just the last 20 years, of how gays are perceived .
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Old 08-07-2012, 11:02 PM   #209
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Re: North Carolina passes same-sex marriage ban

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On a related point, I recently watched the movie Philadelphia for the first time (I generally don't watch "legal" movies often simply b/c I am constantly yelling "You can't do that" and "no, No, NOOO!!! That's so blatantly wrong!" at the screen).

While the movie may exagerate it to make a point, it is amazing to see the transformation, in just the last 20 years, of how gays are perceived .
Good point. Seeing that movie now it's hard to believe people were so ignorant just a short time ago.
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Old 08-07-2012, 11:22 PM   #210
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Re: North Carolina passes same-sex marriage ban

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Good point. Seeing that movie now it's hard to believe people were so ignorant just a short time ago.
Well if you think about it, the movie was made in 1993 - so ~20 years ago.

~ 20 years before 1993, I would suggest that you would be hard pressed to find a oscar nominated movie with a black man in one of the lead roles.

The times they are a changin'.
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