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2012 Presidential Election (free for all edition)

Debating with the enemy


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Old 10-12-2012, 11:10 AM   #1126
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Re: 2012 Presidential Election (free for all edition)

I tried to watch Biden as objectivly as I could and no matter how hard I tried he came off very rude and childish. If my child was that rude she would go to time out or get in trouble in school. My 5 yr old has better manners then the VP of the US. Ryan did just OK but with the way Biden acted I think it shadowed Ryans inexperience in a debate this big. I'm not a fan of Obama but to think if something happened to him over the past 4 yrs we would have had Biden as our pres is scarry.

Funny after the debate and watching the Steelers get whipped I flipped back and forth between CNN and FOX news. Seems CNN polls and reports showed Ryan had a little lead winning the debate and FOX was showing Biden had a slight lead winning the debate
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Old 10-12-2012, 11:18 AM   #1127
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Re: 2012 Presidential Election (free for all edition)

Somewhat surprising to see the Dems win on foreign policy. However the fact of the matter is a lot of people agree with the Dems foreign policy. Far right Neocons are itching for another war but they know if they come out and say it their chances of getting elected will go down.

The peace through strength thing is just empty rhetoric as far as I can tell.

In truth the terrorist are trying to provoke us. They want us to put boots on the ground. For starters it brings Americans straight to them which they love because then they don't have to travel to kill the "infidels." It also makes it easier to indoctrinate young children into extremist factions of Al-Queda as they can point and say 'look at the Americans that have come to rape our land.'

On top of that another war would hurt us economically and one of the things they've been going after is our prosperity. They love that our unemployment is so high and that our way of life is in danger. If they can get America to commit to another war then that hurts us more.

I still agree with the GOP on economic policy but this desire to increase defense and police the world is dangerous. And as we've learned over the past thousand or so years, trying to achieve peace in the Middle East is a fools errand.
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Old 10-12-2012, 11:30 AM   #1128
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Re: 2012 Presidential Election (free for all edition)

I guess no one has ever seen Biden debate? No one is familiar with his "style"? So people are surprised by this? Guess you dont pay close enough attention then

Biden won the debate, slight advantage over Ryan mainly do to his experience. No surprises last night.
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Old 10-12-2012, 11:30 AM   #1129
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No. It is b/c he was being an ass. A complete and total ass. If the demeanors had been switched, all we would be hearing about is Ryan's unprofessionalism, blah blah blah. Sorry, you can deny it or revel in it but the bottom line is as to demeanor Biden was everything bad in a politician. My wife, a died in the wool Democrat who wouldn't vote Republican if her life depended on it, said one point "Wow. He just doesn't know how to be an adult does he?".

Biden was unprofessional and uncivil and did nothing to persuade fence sitters "Hey, let's vote for this guy!".

Ryan was evasive. He was professional and strong on presentation. BUT - I counted at least three separate direct questions, he simply failed to answer. lt's the kind of thing that makes me yell at the screen "It's a simple question - JUST ANSWER IT!"

I thought they both blew - big time - the final question concerning negativity in campaigns and the soldier "desparing for America". I turned to my wife and said, "Well, that's a softball", because I was expecting to hear two puff pieces on why America is great and admitting the negativity but hoping we could get past it to build a better place for the future blah blah blah. Instead, they both take the opportunity to say what a horrible America it will be if the other guy gets elected. Sad. Just sad.

All in all. Content wise it was what we expected and nothing new. Those of you claiming Ryan looked like a newb, I respectfully disagree. He looked like a polished politician - with all the good and ill that implies. Biden on the other hand, to me, looked like an unpolished politician - with all the good and ill that implies.
I think none of that matters in the current state of political affairs. I would cite many Tea Party speeches as examples. Biden came out and spoke with populist appeal.

The other side has "brought it" like this numerous times and the dems just run away with their tail between their legs. Cheers to Biden for recognizing what needed to be done with this debate. And cheers for being a bit upset with the Romney/Ryan ticket, which has flip flopped on numerous issues to see what sticks. Ryan looked startled and canned in his responses IMO.

Keep in mind, these "debates" are more about confidence and command than substance. I think Biden won in all those areas.
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Old 10-12-2012, 11:40 AM   #1130
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Re: 2012 Presidential Election (free for all edition)

Joe Biden was a little over the top and rude at times, but let's not go overboard here. No one's not voting Democrat or switching parties over last night. And the idea of fence sitters this late in the game is complete and utter bullshit. People know where they stood far in advance of these debates.

Joe Biden won the debate hands down, but I thought Paul Ryan handled himself well. Call it a draw, a split decision or whatever, but it won't change the fundamentals of the race.

Theatrics aside, I did think it was for the most part substantive.
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Old 10-12-2012, 11:44 AM   #1131
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Re: 2012 Presidential Election (free for all edition)

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I think none of that matters in the current state of political affairs. I would cite many Tea Party speeches as examples. Biden came out and spoke with populist appeal.

The other side has "brought it" like this numerous times and the dems just run away with their tail between their legs. Cheers to Biden for recognizing what needed to be done with this debate. And cheers for being a bit upset with the Romney/Ryan ticket, which has flip flopped on numerous issues to see what sticks. Ryan looked startled and canned in his responses IMO.

Keep in mind, these "debates" are more about confidence and command than substance. I think Biden won in all those areas.
Acting like a child, being unprofessional and rude - all of these, to me, do not demonstrate "confidence and command" but rather the exact opposite. I don't care if it's Biden, Democrats, Tea Partiers or Abraham Lincoln - such demeanor in a supposedly civil debate was inappropriate and unprofessional.

Are you trying to tell me that, if the demeanors had been switched and it was Ryan interrupting, smirking, etc., you would credit Ryan for exhibiting "confidence and command"? Really?

Pardon me if I find that hard to believe.
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Old 10-12-2012, 11:51 AM   #1132
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Re: 2012 Presidential Election (free for all edition)

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Joe Biden was a little over the top and rude at times, but let's not go overboard here. No one's not voting Democrat or switching parties over last night. And the idea of fence sitters this late in the game is complete and utter bullshit. People know where they stood far in advance of these debates.

Joe Biden won the debate hands down, but I thought Paul Ryan handled himself well. Call it a draw, a split decision or whatever, but it won't change the fundamentals of the race.

Theatrics aside, I did think it was for the most part substantive.
In my opinion, (1) Biden was more than a "a little over the top"; (2) not sure I agree that Biden won "hands down", I would agree with pretty much everything else you've said.

Debates bump your base and maybe pick up a few fence sitters (or more accurately, give a final push off the fence for people already leaning your way). Poll numbers indicate that their are still undecideds in this race, my guess is most are leaning one way or another and are just looking for a reason not to stay home on election day. As you said, nothing in this debate changed any of the fundamentals.
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Old 10-12-2012, 11:55 AM   #1133
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Re: 2012 Presidential Election (free for all edition)

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Joe Biden was a little over the top and rude at times, but let's not go overboard here. No one's not voting Democrat or switching parties over last night. And the idea of fence sitters this late in the game is complete and utter bullshit. People know where they stood far in advance of these debates.

Joe Biden won the debate hands down, but I thought Paul Ryan handled himself well. Call it a draw, a split decision or whatever, but it won't change the fundamentals of the race.

Theatrics aside, I did think it was for the most part substantive.
I planned to vote Libertarian, and still likely will, but I did watch the debate (didn't watch the first one) and for me Biden's over the top act moved me closer to vote for Romney.

I probably will watch the last debate (there is one more right?) and end up voting Libertarian cause I won't like either of them.
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Old 10-12-2012, 11:58 AM   #1134
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Re: 2012 Presidential Election (free for all edition)

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I think none of that matters in the current state of political affairs. I would cite many Tea Party speeches as examples. Biden came out and spoke with populist appeal.

The other side has "brought it" like this numerous times and the dems just run away with their tail between their legs. Cheers to Biden for recognizing what needed to be done with this debate. And cheers for being a bit upset with the Romney/Ryan ticket, which has flip flopped on numerous issues to see what sticks. Ryan looked startled and canned in his responses IMO.

Keep in mind, these "debates" are more about confidence and command than substance. I think Biden won in all those areas.
Funny you say that. As a lawyer when your in court its like a debate. If you acted like Biden a judge would have kicked you out of the court room in the first 10 minutes.
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Old 10-12-2012, 11:59 AM   #1135
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Re: 2012 Presidential Election (free for all edition)

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I will also say this (and yes I know it was not a court room setting) -- if an attorney behaved in the manner Biden did while presenting a case at trial - rolling his eyes, smirking, laughing when not speaking and interrupting opposing counsel & the judge, he would have been found in contempt so fast it wouldn't be funny.

If you can't advocate your position without being an ass, then either you are truly an ass or your position is just not that strong.
You can't lie or bullshit in court. All Biden did was laugh at him a few times, which can't be helped when the guy across is making wild claims, said malarkey and fought for his court time.

This is much to do about nothing...but... there's still a chance for the bullshit ticket that is Romney/Ryan to win so get your vote on.
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Old 10-12-2012, 12:03 PM   #1136
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Biden's demeanor and interruptions were embarrassing. I didn't watch the first debate, and have for the most part given up on the political system, but for me, just off that debate, I may end up voting for Romney(not that it would matter much in Md).

So much for principles and independence...
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Old 10-12-2012, 12:05 PM   #1137
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Just posted this a bit earlier on fb. Dems are weak and pushovers but when they grow a pair and don't BS they are rude?

Huge hypocrisy.

I love it. Democrats need to take it to the opponent with a freaking sledgehammer. I'm sick of being pushed around by the far right. Durbin had it spot on: the only reason repubs are talking about bidens smiling or interrupting is because Ryan was destroyed in all other areas.


They want to have their cake, eat it, and then have yours too. Unbelievable. They can go suck a dck and choke on it.
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Old 10-12-2012, 12:57 PM   #1138
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Re: 2012 Presidential Election (free for all edition)

FACT CHECK: Slips in vice president's debate - Yahoo! News
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Old 10-12-2012, 01:46 PM   #1139
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Funny you say that. As a lawyer when your in court its like a debate. If you acted like Biden a judge would have kicked you out of the court room in the first 10 minutes.
These "debates" aren't like court cases either, so I'm not following why we should use that as a comparison.
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Old 10-12-2012, 02:00 PM   #1140
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Acting like a child, being unprofessional and rude - all of these, to me, do not demonstrate "confidence and command" but rather the exact opposite. I don't care if it's Biden, Democrats, Tea Partiers or Abraham Lincoln - such demeanor in a supposedly civil debate was inappropriate and unprofessional.

Are you trying to tell me that, if the demeanors had been switched and it was Ryan interrupting, smirking, etc., you would credit Ryan for exhibiting "confidence and command"? Really?

Pardon me if I find that hard to believe.
Maybe not. I mean there are several factors here.

1- Ryan is much younger and less experienced than Biden. If Ryan acted the same way I would think he has very little footing for such a reaction. I think Biden, on the other hand, does.

2 - my mind has already been made up prior to this debate, based on the issues and the respective party platforms. I'm sure that has an impact on my thoughts. Additionally I would say that's exactly what Biden needed to do. Energize supporters after a poor Obama debate performance. I wouldn't be surprised if the polls push back over to the dems side since there will be more energized dems. Same thing happened in the polls due to gops voters last week.

3 - civil and professional debates would be great but the general population doesn't care. It's a combination of lack of education/awareness, a two party system full of bickering even G.W. warned us about, lack of campaign finance reform and out of control dollars in the game (via Super PACs and lobbyists). This isnt changing anytime soon, unless there is a popular referendum or uprising. So I'm fine with the realistic candidate, which I most support, finding a way to win.
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