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Supreme Court Upholds Health Care Mandate

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Old 07-11-2012, 01:09 PM   #181
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Re: Supreme Court Upholds Health Care Mandate

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Originally Posted by 12thMan View Post
Federal tax rates are at a 30 year low. Revenues are the lowest we've seen in years. Yes, taxes need to go up. Not because of Obamacare, but for the sake of our fiscal future.
Revenues are at an all time low because unemployment is at an all time high. Couple that with increased spending that this Administration and the last Administration did, and that is why our government is in the fiscal shape that it is currently in. Raising taxes is not the end all, be all solution to the problem, and those of us who are lucky enough to be employed cannot take more tax hikes.


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As far as the bold portion of your statement, guess what, you and I are footing the bill right now for those without insurance every time they make an emergency room visit. You know that, right? I haven't seen one healthcare economist or insurance industry study that says your healthcare premiums will get jacked up to pay for someone else's healthcare plan. If you can show me ONE independent study reflecting that, I'm all ears.
Well, supposedly Obamacare is modeled after Romneycare...just ask the good citizens of Mass. why they are paying the highest premiums for health insurance in the country.

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You seem to either think or imply that I'm saying taxes need to go up to cover the costs of Obamacare. The healthcare law, by and large, pays for itself and is projected to be deficit neutral. I can't make that any more clear.
It was originally supposed to be a net reduction of about $143 billion in the deficit, but the plan is actually costing $115 billion more than what was originally estimated. So yay, deficit neutral. Did the "Doc fix" ever go into play as well? If so, then you're looking at adding roughly about $84 billion to the deficit. Just because it might be "deficit neutral" doesn't mean taxes won't go up because of the law.
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Old 07-11-2012, 01:41 PM   #182
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Re: Supreme Court Upholds Health Care Mandate

Yes 12thMan, unemployment is an all time high, government spending is an all time high and all the government does is spend spend spend unless a true conservative like Ronald Reagan is elected. As for the taxes, they always seem to go up and there is no reason to doubt they won't go up under the uber liberal Obama. Sure they are low now thanks to Bush but what about tomorrow when Obama becomes our overseer for the next 4 years? Surely they will punitively go up on all Americans.

Open your eyes man, we are dealing with a fella who hates America as our president!
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Old 07-11-2012, 02:07 PM   #183
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Re: Supreme Court Upholds Health Care Mandate

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Yes 12thMan, unemployment is an all time high, government spending is an all time high and all the government does is spend spend spend unless a true conservative like Ronald Reagan is elected. As for the taxes, they always seem to go up and there is no reason to doubt they won't go up under the uber liberal Obama. Sure they are low now thanks to Bush but what about tomorrow when Obama becomes our overseer for the next 4 years? Surely they will punitively go up on all Americans.

Open your eyes man, we are dealing with a fella who hates America as our president!
plus he's muslim
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Old 07-11-2012, 03:51 PM   #184
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Re: Supreme Court Upholds Health Care Mandate

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Yes 12thMan, unemployment is an all time high, government spending is an all time high and all the government does is spend spend spend unless a true conservative like Ronald Reagan is elected. As for the taxes, they always seem to go up and there is no reason to doubt they won't go up under the uber liberal Obama. Sure they are low now thanks to Bush but what about tomorrow when Obama becomes our overseer for the next 4 years? Surely they will punitively go up on all Americans.

Open your eyes man, we are dealing with a fella who hates America as our president!

Speaking of Reagan, I suggest many conservatives to check out this article by one of Ronald Reagan's leading men in office. (David Stockman, President Ronald Reagan's director of the Office of Management and Budget) I don't want to hear about "liberal media" blah blah blah.... This is a straight up conservative from Reagan's administration calling the GOP on their idiocy. Yes I know it's a 2010 article.


http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/01/op...pagewanted=all


Sad thing is, even older GOP guys know the current GOP has ran this country into the ground.
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Old 07-11-2012, 04:00 PM   #185
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Re: Supreme Court Upholds Health Care Mandate

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We are still waiting for the replacement:







You have to laugh at those dimwits at this point.
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Old 07-11-2012, 05:14 PM   #186
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Re: Supreme Court Upholds Health Care Mandate

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Open your eyes man, we are dealing with a fella who hates America as our president!
ok ,I get it you don't like the man but this is BS.
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Old 07-11-2012, 06:05 PM   #187
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Re: Supreme Court Upholds Health Care Mandate

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ok ,I get it you don't like the man but this is BS.

He's being sarcastic if you couldn't tell.
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Old 07-11-2012, 06:32 PM   #188
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Re: Supreme Court Upholds Health Care Mandate

Senate theatrics over taxes - POLITICO.com

Here you go fellow GOPers. Your boys in the Senate denying tax cuts for small businesses unless the Democrats extend Bush's tax cuts for the rich again...



Tell me again how it's Obama's fault? (I say this partly in jest)
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Old 07-11-2012, 06:58 PM   #189
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Re: Supreme Court Upholds Health Care Mandate

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"Fathom the hypocrisy of a government that requires every citizen to prove they are insured....but not everyone must prove they are a citizen."

Given that there people who don't have identification papers who have managed to vote in many elections it is incumbent upon the government not the governed to prove citizenry....and since there is no wide spread prevalence of election fraud it is even more imperative for the government make a strong case for these voter ID laws.

A poll tax by any other name is a poll tax, especially when it is enacted during an election year.
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Old 07-11-2012, 08:01 PM   #190
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Re: Supreme Court Upholds Health Care Mandate

Some more lulz. (and irony) Almost hilarious (yet saddening) to watch people vote against their own best interest all to tow the party line.




Benefit me? This can't be!! The GOP said it wouldn't!! SO did Fox News!!
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Old 07-11-2012, 09:25 PM   #191
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Re: Supreme Court Upholds Health Care Mandate

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Originally Posted by NC_Skins View Post
Some more lulz. (and irony) Almost hilarious (yet saddening) to watch people vote against their own best interest all to tow the party line.




Benefit me? This can't be!! The GOP said it wouldn't!! SO did Fox News!!

Hopefully their governors will follow in Rick Perry's footsteps and opt-out. I doubt they will be sincere though. Much like they did with the stimulus they will tell their incompetent base one thing while writing letters to the administration behind the scenes that reads like the pleas of Kolkata street beggars.
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Old 07-12-2012, 04:13 AM   #192
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Re: Supreme Court Upholds Health Care Mandate

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Originally Posted by NC_Skins View Post
He's being sarcastic if you couldn't tell.
....nope,don't know how I missed it.
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Old 07-12-2012, 09:38 AM   #193
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Re: Supreme Court Upholds Health Care Mandate

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Originally Posted by 12thMan View Post
I haven't seen one healthcare economist or insurance industry study that says your healthcare premiums will get jacked up to pay for someone else's healthcare plan. If you can show me ONE independent study reflecting that, I'm all ears.
http://ehbs.kff.org/pdf/8226.pdf

Obamacare Has Increased Cost of Health Insurance, Says Kaiser Foundation | CNSNews.com

From the link: "However, he continued, “Our analysis is that the Affordable Care Act [ObamaCare] could have been responsible for about one-and-a-half percentage points – we say 1 to 2 percentage points – of the increase that we’re documenting this year,” he said."

and that's just from 2010 to 2011, when most of the provisions haven't kicked in.

and this: http://www.cbo.gov/sites/default/fil...0-premiums.pdf

From the link: CBO and JCT estimate that the average premium per person covered (including dependents) for new nongroup policies would be about 10 percent to 13 percent higher in 2016 than the average premium for nongroup coverage in that same year under current law.

and this from PolitiFact (no bastion of conservatism for sure):
PolitiFact | Nancy Pelosi says 'everybody' will get more and pay less under the health care law

Even one of the main architects of Obamacare is changing his tune:
How Obamacare Dramatically Increases the Cost of Insurance for Young Workers - Forbes

from the link:
"Gruber now: Obamacare will increase premiums by 19-30 percent
As states began the process of considering whether or not to set up the insurance exchanges mandated by the new health law, several retained Gruber as a consultant. In at least three cases—Wisconsin in August 2011, Minnesota in November 2011, and Colorado in January 2012—Gruber reported that premiums in the individual market would increase, not decrease, as a result of Obamacare.
In Wisconsin, Gruber reported that people purchasing insurance for themselves on the individual market would see, on average, premium increases of 30 percent by 2016, relative to what would have happened in the absence of Obamacare. In Minnesota, the law would increase premiums by 29 percent over the same period. Colorado was the least worst off, with premiums under the law rising by only 19 percent."

And just sayin: When Medicare was passed in 1965, for example, the federal government estimated it would cost $12 billion in 1990. Medicare actually cost $110 billion in 1990.
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Old 07-12-2012, 05:55 PM   #194
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Re: Supreme Court Upholds Health Care Mandate

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The only reason I can see why people object to this law is that they beleive that some people are to dumb to bring an ID to vote. Hell, even if they forget their ID they can still vote and their ID checked following the election. BTW that quote did not say one thing about voter ID.
It's not that they are too dumb, it is that they have never had an ID or needed one. And the implication of your statement can't be misconstrued to mean anything other than for a citizen to show some kind of an identificaiton to "prove" their ability to vote.

There are two ways to prove citizenry and both require the government to be proactive in the verification process. One way places unnecessary burden upon the citizens and the other does not.

The burdensome way is what unscrupulous Republicans are doing which is to force citizens to spend money and energy to obtain a passport, birth certificate or a drivers license obtained by first proving citizenship. And if they don't have any documents at all they have to look to the government, the same government asking them to prove citizenship, to get more documents that show they are indeed citizens.

The unburdensome way is what we do here in Washington state. Anyone can show up to the DMV and register to vote or reigister online. Once the state has your information it checks your name and information against a database that contains all voters eligable to vote based on national citizenship and felons records. Once the election is complete the voting records are made available for participating parties to see and any party can challenge a voter's vote. The voter is then notified of the challenge and they have until the date the election is suppose to be certified prove that the challenge is unfounded.

At the end of the day what we in Washington state is what every state should be doing regardless of a citizens ability to show an ID. Common sense tells you that the government should proactively verify whether a voter can vote in an election cycle and if they can do that then why do you even need an ID? You can't tell me that the government that issued you an ID that proves your citizenship status doesn't know your citizenship status or can't verify it.


Innocent until proven guilty, you understand?

Last edited by saden1; 07-12-2012 at 06:49 PM.
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Old 07-12-2012, 09:23 PM   #195
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Re: Supreme Court Upholds Health Care Mandate

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Originally Posted by NC_Skins View Post
Oh my god, are you really going to argue semantics now? Jobs being shipped overseas is jobs lost in America. They'd have to lay off people in America just to give jobs to somebody overseas. It's job loss.
Not all jobs lost go overseas. Some are just lost, particularly if there's no demand for said job anymore by circumstances like say increased taxes on a manufacturer. Again, show where the Fox link said those jobs would be sent overseas.

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No, it doesn't. Him sharing a concern isn't him agreeing with Fox.
They made the same take on the same point. I can't see how you could spin this other than agreement on that point, and certainly not call one side exaggerating for it. They both agree the tax hurts small businesses that are important in the medical device field. Maybe you're confusing Fox with the AdvaMed article cited in the CPBB story.

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In other words, he's saying that this tax isn't going to matter really because the number of people covered by the new health insurance which will ultimately increase revenues!!!! Significant increase is the actual word he used.
And here's one example of where the CBPP article makes a foolish conclusion. If you increase demand for medical devices by making more people eligible for them, but decrease supply by increasing taxes on the manufacturer, then medical devices will be more expensive and harder for the average person to get. Even in the best case scenario, how much sooner does someone's health care insurance run out with the increased cost of medical devices? Looking at how hospital costs for everything from surgery to bandages has gone up since insurance companies took a stronger role in setting prices, it's not a rosy picture for people needing those medical devices in the future.

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Here is exactly what Fox said.

No. No way companies are laying off people or cutting R&D due to the looming tax. If anything, they are using this as an excuse like many companies like to do. Hrmm...how do I cut my work force, and push the extra work onto others without looking like the bad guy? Oh, I know, I'll just claim this new tax is going to kill my profits!!
But companies must be laying off people for a reason, including profit. They won't actually do such things to hurt themselves, just to not look like the bad guy. I think you're confusing rhetoric by companies that live or die by such business decisions, with rhetoric by posturing politicians in Washington. Sure politicians act like you describe, but people whose bottom line is affected by laying off or hiring people? Really?

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Since you want to argue semantics, Fox's title is this "Five major ObamaCare taxes that will hit your wallet in 2013" is misleading and false as well. Notice the word WILL, and not the word COULD. Distorting? Yes. Misleading? Yes. False? Yes.

There are many medical devices that aren't being taxed. So this tax isn't going to affect everybody's wallet. Not everybody will need to buy a medical device that's being taxed. Hey, not according to Fox!!
You forget that we're all paying for this system, now more than ever. So we are absolutely affected by taxes like this. Not because we may have to get that kind of care ourselves, but because if costs for that kind of service rises, guess who funds the system to support it?

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Listen, we aren't going to agree on this, so you keep believing Fox and I'll chose not to. That we can agree on.
Hey, I'm cool with agreeing to disagree. I'm just saying I don't see where Fox exaggerated *in this case*. I don't agree with believing or dismissing any source out of hand, even if it's Fox or MSNBC or any biased source. It leads to getting entirely too comfortable with getting only one side of debates.
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