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Gun Control Thread- Should we?

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Old 12-19-2012, 12:28 PM   #241
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Re: Gun Control Thread- Should we?

Nancy Pelosi wants your assault magazines. (whatever that is)


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Old 12-19-2012, 02:39 PM   #242
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Re: Gun Control Thread- Should we?

Quote:
Originally Posted by skinsguy View Post
Guns do not have a sole purpose or intent. They are not live, breathing life forms. They are inadament objects. The intent lies with the person who is using one. The same as someone who's wielding a knife, using a baseball bat for purposes other than playing baseball, or using their hands and feet in certain deadly styles of martial arts. Knowing these facts, it remains like I stated earlier, dealing with the root of the problem, behavioral health, would lead to much less gun crime than greatly reducing or banning fire arms.




Or we could take a note from Switzerland, who does not have a standing army, but rather a militia. Most every male carries a weapon, and gun crime rates are so low in Switzerland that they don't even have to kept statistics.



Here's where you guys are so one dimensional in your thinking. You are assuming that banning guns will greatly reduce gun crimes. It's the same failed logic to the war on drugs and illegal alcohol. The only thing that gun laws do now is keep an honest man honest. A ban on fire arms would disarm law abiding citizens, and suddenly there is a HUGE under world black market for guns just like drugs. Your street gangs and mafias, your homicidal people will still be armed, still be committing murders, and your law abiding citizens will feel unprotected.

What I'm trying to get you guys to look at is treating and correcting the root of the problem FIRST! That is the MOST effective way of reducing violent crimes. The root of that problem is the behavior, the tendency toward committing these crimes. Haven't you learned anything in history? Man needed food, so he made weapons to kill his dinner and tools to cook. Man needed to travel, so he made roads and vehicles. My point is, if man does not have a tool he needs, he'll create it or use alternatives to getting the tools he needs in life. He won't just throw his hands up and say, "ah well, guess I won't ever be able to kill anybody anymore now since guns are banned." You honest, really think that is going to happen? LOL!
Skinsguy, you're right. Guns have other purposes. It was wrong for me to insinuate there was a single purpose. Let me rephrase, they are designed to kill. When guns are invisioned, most of them are designed to kill people or animals. I'm sure there are some designed for target practice, etc. That said, I don't believe those are the weapons we're having issues with in this country. However, the point of my original post stands, people are grasping at straw man arguments to defend it. You're grasping at banning cars, knives, and baseball bats. No one is saying violence stems from a single form, but firearms are the easiest and most efficient. Secondly, all of the above are not being used as intended, where assault rifles are being used as intended.

Switzerland is certainly the exception to the rule. However, let's be clear. Each person that owns a gun there also has military training to go along with the gun. They have very few automatic weapons, only active militia personnel are given access to automatic weapons. They strictly regulate all ammunition. If you need ammunition you are forced to get it from the military armory in the event of an emergency, except the ammunition sold at the shooting range which has strict regulations on using that ammunition at the range. Finally, to carry a gun in public you must get a permit which you have to justify your need to carry a firearm and pass an exam. So, all of your folks talking about how utopic Switzerland is... I agree. Let's enact their system. I'm fine with it. I'm guessing most of the pro-gun crowd isn't though. So how about we stop using Switzerland as an example.

What about a bit of a compromise, what about the laws Japan has in place? To buy a shotgun or an air rifle (handguns/assault rifles banned) you have to:
  • Take a class and exam.
  • Skill test at shooting range.
  • Pass a drug test.
  • Comprehensive mental evaluation.
  • File your firearm with the police, who run a background check.

This ensures only qualified individuals own a firearm. Japan had 11 gun-related homicides last year. It brings mental health into the picture as an equation. It causes someone who wants a gun to clear multiple hurdles to get a firearm. That's enough to deter those who don't deserve a gun.

When it really comes down to it, if children getting slaughtered by a crazy man with an assault rifle won't convince you to change your stance, nothing I can type on a football forum would change that stance.

LINKZ:
Gun politics in Switzerland - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Getting a gun in Japan – Amanpour - CNN.com Blogs
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Old 12-19-2012, 02:54 PM   #243
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Re: Gun Control Thread- Should we?

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Originally Posted by firstdown View Post
And, as I already said, that source has been discredited for two reasons.

1) The statistical model they used was flawed.
2) That source was created by people in the Australian gun lobby and hence had a predetermined outcome.

Find out more here:
http://andrewleigh.org/pdf/GunBuyback.pdf

Or try this source from Harvard:
http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/research...pring_2011.pdf

All reputable research indicates that the Aussie get-tough-on-guns approach worked.
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Old 12-19-2012, 03:05 PM   #244
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Re: Gun Control Thread- Should we?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lotus View Post
And, as I already said, that source has been discredited for two reasons.

1) The statistical model they used was flawed.
2) That source was created by people in the Australian gun lobby and hence had a predetermined outcome.

Find out more here:
http://andrewleigh.org/pdf/GunBuyback.pdf

Or try this source from Harvard:
http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/research...pring_2011.pdf

All reputable research indicates that the Aussie get-tough-on-guns approach worked.
Counter to that is a far more thoroughly researched paper by Lee and Suardi which would suggest otherwise.

Although gun buybacks appear to be a logical
and sensible policy that helps to placate the
publicís fears, the evidence so far suggests that
in the Australian context, the high expenditure
incurred to fund the 1996 gun buyback has not
translated into any tangible reductions in
terms of firearm deaths.


It will take a more concerted effort by everyone to counter societal ills that foment this kind of act.
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Old 12-19-2012, 03:11 PM   #245
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Re: Gun Control Thread- Should we?

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Originally Posted by RedskinRat View Post
Because you didn't have a gun in the first place?
because it seems to me that people are so self absorbed that they are worried about themselves, instead of maybe looking at the big picture
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Old 12-19-2012, 03:19 PM   #246
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Re: Gun Control Thread- Should we?

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Originally Posted by dmek25 View Post
because it seems to me that people are so self absorbed that they are worried about themselves, instead of maybe looking at the big picture
From the point of self defense, I am exceedingly self absorbed or as I prefer to look at it: Proactive.

I live in a remote, high crime area. There is no way that cops are getting to my location, should I need their help, in under 30 minutes at best. I choose to have a defensive solution to hand.

I could understand your stance if I was out brandishing my handgun and big pimpin'.

Tell me what you think the bigger picture is? Kumbayah around the firepit with marshmallows? Eff that!
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Old 12-19-2012, 04:15 PM   #247
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Re: Gun Control Thread- Should we?

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Originally Posted by hooskins View Post
Also I'm sick of the guns don't kill people argument. If you want to make a literal argument for the sake of justifying a position without facts I have one too; nukes don't kill people, countries pressing the red button do. Why should we even discuss reducing nuclear stock piles or preventing states from getting them? They are just deterrents!!

See how I took a ridiculous point, interpreted super literally, to counter? We can do this all day. Its stupid and pointless. Guns, especially high ammo and high fire rate, make killing people easier and really are not needed for practical purposes.
What does that mean?

If they are used for practical purposes, why should it matter, they are not harming anyone. You say they are not needed, do you really think you are qualified to speak for every law abiding citizen that owns one?

Please explain what legal guns you think have high fire rate.
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Last edited by Alvin Walton; 12-19-2012 at 04:31 PM.
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Old 12-19-2012, 04:30 PM   #248
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Re: Gun Control Thread- Should we?

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Originally Posted by RedskinRat View Post
Counter to that is a far more thoroughly researched paper by Lee and Suardi which would suggest otherwise.

Although gun buybacks appear to be a logical
and sensible policy that helps to placate the
publicís fears, the evidence so far suggests that
in the Australian context, the high expenditure
incurred to fund the 1996 gun buyback has not
translated into any tangible reductions in
terms of firearm deaths.


It will take a more concerted effort by everyone to counter societal ills that foment this kind of act.
And as you know from the links that I provided, the study by Lee and Suardi has been refuted.

Any more discredited research that you guys would like to cite, since you are 0 for 2 so far in providing substantive research which supports your position?
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Old 12-19-2012, 04:32 PM   #249
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Re: Gun Control Thread- Should we?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lotus View Post
And as you know from the links that I provided, the study by Lee and Suardi has been refuted.

Any more discredited research that you guys would like to cite, since you are 0 for 2 so far in providing substantive research which supports your position?
One problem with that whole thing.
This isnt Australia.
Different history, different culture, different etc etc etc
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Old 12-19-2012, 04:32 PM   #250
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Re: Gun Control Thread- Should we?

One of the more powerful statements I have heard:

If only the first victim, Adam Lanza's mother, had been a gun owner, she could have stopped this before it started.
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Old 12-19-2012, 04:38 PM   #251
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Re: Gun Control Thread- Should we?

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Originally Posted by Alvin Walton View Post
One problem with that whole thing.
This isnt Australia.
Different history, different culture, different etc etc etc
The Harvard study that I provided discusses this exact issue.

We can learn from the Aussie experience and still create our own, uniquely American solution. The current American status quo clearly is not working.
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Old 12-19-2012, 04:43 PM   #252
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Re: Gun Control Thread- Should we?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lotus View Post
And as you know from the links that I provided, the study by Lee and Suardi has been refuted.

Any more discredited research that you guys would like to cite, since you are 0 for 2 so far in providing substantive research which supports your position?
There is no mention of Lee and/or Suardi or their work in the first link and the second makes some vague rebuttal that there may have been a lag between the implementation and the effect.

However it does make this comment you obviously overlooked:

It does not appear that the Australian experience with gun buybacks is fully replicable in the United States. Levitt provides three reasons why gun buybacks in the United States have apparently been ineffective: (a) the buybacks are relatively small in scale (b) guns are surrendered voluntarily, and so are not like the ones used in crime; and (c) replacement guns are easy to obtain.

Once again you try to bluster or bluff your way through an argument you can't validate.
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Old 12-19-2012, 04:43 PM   #253
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Re: Gun Control Thread- Should we?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alvin Walton View Post
One problem with that whole thing.
This isnt Australia.
Different history, different culture, different etc etc etc

Actually they are all descendents of crimmnals.
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Old 12-19-2012, 04:43 PM   #254
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Re: Gun Control Thread- Should we?

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Originally Posted by mredskins View Post
One of the more powerful statements I have heard:

If only the first victim, Adam Lanza's mother, had been a gun owner, she could have stopped this before it started.
It's certainly one of the more obtuse. If only she had been a better mother.....
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Old 12-19-2012, 04:48 PM   #255
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Re: Gun Control Thread- Should we?

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Originally Posted by mredskins View Post
Actually they are all descendents of crimmnals.
Original Aussies, yes. There have been immigrants going there from the UK since the 1960's.
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