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Official 2012 Election Day Thread

Debating with the enemy


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Old 11-08-2012, 10:08 PM   #196
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Re: Official 2012 Election Day Thread

I have no doubt many blacks and whites voted based on things other than skin color. I also recognize the historic trend of black voters to vote as block for Democratic candidates. Further, the increase in percentages for minority voters, while generally trending to an increase for all minorities, doubled in 2008 for black voters in 2008 as compared to 2004 (i.e. it had, along with all minorities, been trending up but in 2008 sharply increased its trend - whereas it had been increasing at a rate of 2% similar to other minorities, in 2008 it increased at a rate of 4% while other minorities continued at roughly the same rate as 2004).

I agree that Obama did a great outreach and targeted minority groups for increased turnouts. At the same time, just as it is difficult showing what percentage of white voters considered race as a factor in voting against Obama, I would suggest similar difficulties exist demonstrating the opposite.

To assert, as saden appears to do, however, that race played no part or had no influence on Obama's supporters while at the same time asserting that a significant portion of Romney's support was fundamentally racist is, to me, faulty. Similar to disparate impact showing racism w/out direct evidence of direct racist in employment, I would suggest the increased trends and disparate voter divide demonstrate that race did play a part in the black votes of 2008 and 2012. Significant? Not sure. Can I prove it? Nope. Haven't seen the poll yet that said "Did you vote for or against Obama b/c he was African-American?".

My simple point is that racism exists in both white and blacks. If saden wishes to deny this, fine.

(As an example: Black teen riding on his bike nearly runs into me as I walk out of the local Giant. Simple case of both of us not looking. I think nothing of it. He audibly states "Man, I f'ing hate white people." Nothing significant, a solitary example in the big city, but, to me, just as inexcusable as if I had made the reverse remark).
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Old 11-08-2012, 10:15 PM   #197
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I would like to hear your theory on Latinos, Asians, Muslims and Jews as well. If you didnt have anything close to 50% and are now further losing in every demo, maybe, just maybe they aren't the problem.


Mirror mirror on the wall...who is the fairest of them all?


...there is another milady.
That's all Obama's ground game. Sure race is a part of it, but their campaign way able to mobilize and increase black, Latino, Asian, female and youth vote. Oh and all those groups voted in larger numbers in 2012.

race is a factor but it would be oversimplification to not give credit to the campaign in getting folks registered and making them aware of key issues.
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Old 11-08-2012, 10:19 PM   #198
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Racism exists between all races but the injustices, which the civil rights movement was predicated on, exist as undercurrents. I think there is a key difference there.

Additionally, voter suppression, from the right fuels distrust between minorities and whites. I've gone into this at lengths in the past.
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Old 11-08-2012, 10:26 PM   #199
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Re: Official 2012 Election Day Thread

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Racism exists between all races but the injustices, which the civil rights movement was predicated on, exist as undercurrents. I think there is a key difference there.

Additionally, voter suppression, from the right fuels distrust between minorities and whites. I've gone into this at lengths in the past.
I absolutely agree with this. The republicans definitely have a long way to go in changing their party's mindset about civic issues if they want to get close to having black voters trust them.
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Old 11-08-2012, 10:29 PM   #200
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... but it would be oversimplification to not give credit to the campaign in getting folks registered and making them aware of key issues.
Fair enough and I was not intending to do so.
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Old 11-08-2012, 10:29 PM   #201
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I have no doubt many blacks and whites voted based on things other than skin color. I also recognize the historic trend of black voters to vote as block for Democratic candidates. Further, the increase in percentages for minority voters, while generally trending to an increase for all minorities, doubled in 2008 for black voters in 2008 as compared to 2004 (i.e. it had, along with all minorities, been trending up but in 2008 sharply increased its trend - whereas it had been increasing at a rate of 2% similar to other minorities, in 2008 it increased at a rate of 4% while other minorities continued at roughly the same rate as 2004).

I agree that Obama did a great outreach and targeted minority groups for increased turnouts. At the same time, just as it is difficult showing what percentage of white voters considered race as a factor in voting against Obama, I would suggest similar difficulties exist demonstrating the opposite.

To assert, as saden appears to do, however, that race played no part or had no influence on Obama's supporters while at the same time asserting that a significant portion of Romney's support was fundamentally racist is, to me, faulty. Similar to disparate impact showing racism w/out direct evidence of direct racist in employment, I would suggest the increased trends and disparate voter divide demonstrate that race did play a part in the black votes of 2008 and 2012. Significant? Not sure. Can I prove it? Nope. Haven't seen the poll yet that said "Did you vote for or against Obama b/c he was African-American?".

My simple point is that racism exists in both white and blacks. If saden wishes to deny this, fine.

(As an example: Black teen riding on his bike nearly runs into me as I walk out of the local Giant. Simple case of both of us not looking. I think nothing of it. He audibly states "Man, I f'ing hate white people." Nothing significant, a solitary example in the big city, but, to me, just as inexcusable as if I had made the reverse remark).
Personally i agree with you 100% about racism being a two way street.
Was thinking the same thing about a poll that would show how many whites voted against and blacks for Obama due to skin color. I think the number is alot bigger than any of us would like to admit on both sides.
I would like to smack some manners into the kid on the bike but it would bother me alot more to hear that a white kid said that to a black gentleman. Not that either scenario is acceptable. Just that I personally cant overlook slavery/ equal rites struggles / etc as the past and gone. That kid on the bike might have grandparents or great grandparents who were literally beat down for being black. The basis or origins of black culture in this country will always be a handicap to current or future generations because you cant erase the past. Should that kid be taught to hate white people - absolutely not. But i understand that there is a history there that runs through his parents and their parents that cannot be denied. Its easy for a white guy like me to go - "ehhh - that was a long time ago- the world is different". But it wasnt my grandparents who lived it.
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Old 11-09-2012, 09:57 AM   #202
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Re: Official 2012 Election Day Thread

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I have no doubt many blacks and whites voted based on things other than skin color. I also recognize the historic trend of black voters to vote as block for Democratic candidates. Further, the increase in percentages for minority voters, while generally trending to an increase for all minorities, doubled in 2008 for black voters in 2008 as compared to 2004 (i.e. it had, along with all minorities, been trending up but in 2008 sharply increased its trend - whereas it had been increasing at a rate of 2% similar to other minorities, in 2008 it increased at a rate of 4% while other minorities continued at roughly the same rate as 2004).

I agree that Obama did a great outreach and targeted minority groups for increased turnouts. At the same time, just as it is difficult showing what percentage of white voters considered race as a factor in voting against Obama, I would suggest similar difficulties exist demonstrating the opposite.

To assert, as saden appears to do, however, that race played no part or had no influence on Obama's supporters while at the same time asserting that a significant portion of Romney's support was fundamentally racist is, to me, faulty. Similar to disparate impact showing racism w/out direct evidence of direct racist in employment, I would suggest the increased trends and disparate voter divide demonstrate that race did play a part in the black votes of 2008 and 2012. Significant? Not sure. Can I prove it? Nope. Haven't seen the poll yet that said "Did you vote for or against Obama b/c he was African-American?".

My simple point is that racism exists in both white and blacks. If saden wishes to deny this, fine.

(As an example: Black teen riding on his bike nearly runs into me as I walk out of the local Giant. Simple case of both of us not looking. I think nothing of it. He audibly states "Man, I f'ing hate white people." Nothing significant, a solitary example in the big city, but, to me, just as inexcusable as if I had made the reverse remark).

In everything I have posted I have stayed away from playing the race card or calling people racist. I don't question people's motives for who they vote for but I do questions the tactics used by Republicans to energize their base. The whistle is loud and clear and this year was no different, and I would even say it was worse this year. I mean, there was an across the board Republican leadership failure to recognize that people don't like to be insulted and you can't count on models that tell you the other guy's turnout is going to be sub-par.


Now lets talk about voter turnout by ethnicity you allude to. I don't know where you're getting your figures from but here is the breakdown of voter turnout based on race:




I don't see any inconsistency as far as the African American vote relative to other minorities. The only thing I read from the above chart is that young people really like Obama, the white electorate is decreasing and republicans are further losing the minority vote. I mean, if you look at the demographics for Latinos and Asians now it's bloodbath. In fact, it's even better than the African american turnout relative to 2008. I mean, a 2% increase could be attributed to lots of factors.

You're trying to even the playing field and playing that "both sides" card and I'm telling it's not the minorities that are the problem. You probably won't hear this from the media but the Obama campaign has been reaching out to the large Somali community in America the last two years, especially the ones in Ohio. And guess what? They are black, they are recent citizens, and he vigorously courted their vote by helping to insure a new Somali government is formed with sense of urgency and by the end of this August. He sent out state department personal, campaign staff, you name what he had to do to get their vote and he did it. After 20 plus years of civil war there is now an official Somali Government and that right there is how you kill two birds with one stone.


My point is the easiest answer is to say there's a race/racist element, but it seems that hardly anyone asks the hard questions. Did Obama really have nearly 500 more campaign staff in VA than Romney? Did he really have someone go to every black barbershop, beauty salon, every black church? Did he do the same thing with respect to other voters? If you look deeper you will realize his operation was systematic and scientific in nature, hell, he was advertising on the Big Ten Network 5 weeks before Romney and company realized and did.


Barring any catastrophe and major scandals this is your next president. His name is Julian Castro and he will be 42 in 2016 (the dems have a 42 yo formula). He will be accomplished by then and he will get the black vote by overwhelming margin. I intend to vote for him with the same passion and vigor unless he is cartel connected...LOL


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Old 11-09-2012, 10:35 AM   #203
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Re: Official 2012 Election Day Thread

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I don't believe that 93% of blacks agree with the fiscal policies of the democrats, I do believe that 93% of blacks don't trust republicans to look out for their interests. I also believe that while white racism mainly is due to skin color and is fading as the younger generations grow up, black racism is mainly due to lack of trust and that the media works hard to perpetuate that, so that you don't see it receding as quickly as you see white racism is. And for those who want to use personal references, my dad couldn't conceive of me having black friends, when one in 6th grade had a crossed burned in his yard, it was considered acceptable, now, my junior high is named for a champion of the racial equality fight, my son wanted to vote for Obama, and he could care less of what color his friends are (nor do I) and I doubt he even considers it in any fashion.

Yes my dad still struggles with his racist upbringing, my 12 yo daughter had a birthday party at his pool and her friends came over. One young black girl's family dropped her off, and hung around, and my dad struggled - you could see it, but my daughter would never have considered it as a thought pattern at all.

Again I believe white racism is shrinking, though I don't deny at all that it exists. On the other side, the perception of racism, and perpetuation of reverse racism is shrinking at an extremely slower rate, and to Saden's point, yes it did occur for a long time, and that does explain a large part, but at some point all sides need to acknowledge that it is in the past and belongs in the past.
There are plenty of what you would call racist black people. My grandmother hates white people. Who wouldn't if you were forced to ride the back of the bus? Is she willing to stand in line to vote for Hillary Clinton, she would, would she vote for John Kerry, she did. Can she be called racist?

As for racism becoming less prevalent I can only speak form my perspective. I never grew up in a household were race mattered or impacted our lives much. I lived in Burke, VA and that mofo was a white as white can be in the mid 90s. I have always had "race doesn't matter" lenses on but after the Travon Martin case and all the vitriol that went on a crack appeared. Some of things that were said in right wing circles were pretty vicious and deeply hurtful. It's a struggle to reconcile what was said by a lot of white folks with "race doesn't matter."

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Old 11-09-2012, 11:07 AM   #204
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Re: Official 2012 Election Day Thread

Personally I wasn't sure that the GOP could change especially since I was under the impression that their bench was more of the same on social issues but in reading this statement from Marco Rubio I now feel confident in saying he's likely the future of the party.

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Pro-life, but understands that woman's right is the law. (Jun 2012)
That is the exact type of attitude the GOP needs to have if they're going to evolve. Trying to make laws that over half of the nation disagrees with to get them to force their view on others is a terrible strategy. Try to convince people to be pro-life don't force them through laws that will make problems worse.
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Old 11-09-2012, 12:42 PM   #205
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Re: Official 2012 Election Day Thread

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There are plenty of what you would call racist black people. My grandmother hates white people. Who wouldn't if you were forced to ride the back of the bus? Is she willing to stand in line to vote for Hillary Clinton, she would, would she vote for John Kerry, she did. Can she be called racist?

As for racism becoming less prevalent I can only speak form my perspective. I never grew up in a house hold were race didn't mattered or impacted our lives much. I lived in Burke, VA and that mofo was a white as white can be in the mid 90s. I have always had "race doesn't matter" lenses on but after the Travon Martin case and all the vitriol that went on a crack appeared. Some of things that were said in right wing circles were pretty vicious and deeply hurtful. It's a struggle to reconcile what was said by a lot of white folks with "race doesn't matter."
One point of my post is the generational change in whites. My dad was definitely racist, I wouldn't classify myself as racist, yet I can still do the "I had black friends, or a black fiancee" mentality (which by the way when we went to south Philly together, the comments from blacks to her were so hurtful it wasn't funny, and her dad basically disowned her, until she discovered her blackness and we broke up), but my children, and their friends just don't regard it as an issue.

I do hope that time will heal the scars, as deep as they are, and I imagine that's hope of most everyone in the country.
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Old 11-09-2012, 01:56 PM   #206
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Color does not matter when it comes to FEMA they all are stupid.
I will let my father in law know that. Lol.
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Old 11-09-2012, 02:43 PM   #207
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Re: Official 2012 Election Day Thread

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One point of my post is the generational change in whites. My dad was definitely racist, I wouldn't classify myself as racist, yet I can still do the "I had black friends, or a black fiancee" mentality (which by the way when we went to south Philly together, the comments from blacks to her were so hurtful it wasn't funny, and her dad basically disowned her, until she discovered her blackness and we broke up), but my children, and their friends just don't regard it as an issue.

I do hope that time will heal the scars, as deep as they are, and I imagine that's hope of most everyone in the country.
Progress has been made, is being made and will continue to be made. There are people out who view race as a forefront issue, lord knows I know quite a few black folks with militant mindsets and they are the fringe. My only contention is that the GOP is doing everything it can to harden the resentment of people who share some of their values with comments like "47% are lazy and just want stuff."

You hear about how Kenya West's "George Bush deson't care about black people" was deeply hurtful to Bush and you sympathize with Bush and you decry West's comment and you say to yourself the failure of FEMA under Bush isn't a systematic callousness towards black folks and their plight. Fast forward to now and you watch Mitt Romney vocalize and give credence West's loathsome comments with conviction in that 47% hidden video.

Even now, all you hear the Republicans say is "we need to reach out to minorities, particularly Latinos." As if the African American are less important. You don't particularize, you maximize and you already see that as not happening. If you're going to call yourself the Party of Lincoln and you can't seem to find a way to attract more African Americans there is a serious problem.

The the GOP needs to reflect, reach-out, revitalize to realize gains among minorities. Having the likes of Rubio and all these colored faces is not enough. It's door knocking time. It's time to introduce yourself to a wider community and say hi. Learn about the issues that concerns them and try to address them. Only grace and good will can buy an election in a changing electoral landscape. I hope they do because I would be more than willing to vote for Chris Christie if he didn't come with so much party affiliation baggage. I think he genuinely cares about all people and he is the party's path to electoral success.

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Old 11-09-2012, 03:37 PM   #208
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Re: Official 2012 Election Day Thread

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Progress has been made, is being made and will continue to be made. There are people out who view race as a forefront issue, lord knows I know quite a few black folks with militant mindsets and they are the fringe. My only contention is that the GOP is doing everything it can to harden the resentment of people who share some of their values with comments like "47% are lazy and just want stuff."

You hear about how Kenya West's "George Bush deson't care about black people" was deeply hurtful to Bush and you sympathize with Bush and you decry West's comment and you say to yourself the failure of FEMA under Bush isn't a systematic callousness towards black folks and their plight. Fast forward to now and you watch Mitt Romney vocalize and give credence West's loathsome comments with conviction in that 47% hidden video.

Even now, all you hear the Republicans say is "we need to reach out to minorities, particularly Latinos." As if the African American are less important. You don't particularize, you maximize and you already see that as not happening. If you're going to call yourself the Party of Lincoln and you can't seem to find a way to attract more African Americans there is a serious problem.

The the GOP needs to reflect, reach-out, revitalize to realize gains among minorities. Having the likes of Rubio and all these colored faces is not enough. It's door knocking time. It's time to introduce yourself to a wider community and say hi. Learn about the issues that concerns them and try to address them. Only grace and good will can buy an election in a changing electoral landscape. I hope they do because I would be more than willing to vote for Chris Christie if he didn't come with so much party affiliation baggage. I think he genuinely cares about all people and he is the party's path to electoral success.
Fair enough. Well said.
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Old 11-09-2012, 11:19 PM   #209
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Re: Official 2012 Election Day Thread

Without a doubt it exists on both sides of the playing field. Growing up in the south, I've seen it all, and experience quite a bit of it myself. Try dating somebody outside your race in a southern baptist church. Yeahhhh...lol I've also had this black gentleman (a deacon of a church no doubt) upset that a white guy was in his house. I was there with my g/f visiting one of her friends.

Do I think whites wouldn't vote for Obama because he's black? Sure.

Do I think blacks would vote for Obama solely because he is black? Sure.


When it comes to blacks not voting for whites, well, that's kind of hard to really say since many of the candidates are white. (especially senate/pres) So either they do vote for white people, or they aren't voting at all. I'm sure many don't vote due to the candidate being a white man, but most blacks tend to vote democratic when they do vote.

Why I feel the way I do about racism towards Obama is due to the pure hate and outrage towards his Presidency. I have never seen a President receive the type of hate that Obama has, and it's not even justified. You can tell when there are racial tones or motives when people say things. (like that clip with O' Reilly) One of the key things that many conservatives love pointing out is the welfare. Welfare is such a small fraction of our budget, but they feel that is the driving force behind the down fall of America. You don't hear them complain about the military budget, SS, or even medicare......IT"S THOSE FREE LOADING WELFARE BUMS!! With these people, you know there are racial tones behind it. I hear it all the time. People I know are racists say it, I hear my family members say it, and I know the true underlining behind it all. This is a prime example:

(the irony of this is the guy doesn't even pay taxes...lol)




Going back to the hate that Obama has received. I still don't recall Clinton getting trashed like this when he was elected. This is our future right here.

Racist Teens Forced to Answer for Tweets About the 'Nigger' President

It's pretty sad what these kids said, but the sadder part is that this type of mindset was learned from their parents. Needless to say, these kids will think twice for using social media to broadcast racist comments.


Another idiot. I imagine I wouldn't want the secret service all up in my business.
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Old 11-09-2012, 11:22 PM   #210
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Re: Official 2012 Election Day Thread

Ok, the lighten the mood up a bit. I have found the best thing ever. One of the most epic rants I've ever heard. This batshit crazy woman had me in tears laughing. I think sane people on all sides of the fence (right/left/middle) can find this amusing...lol


Warning: Lots of foul language







Sammy, just tell me you didn't lose it like this woman...lol j/k
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