Should the Senior Bowl or the Combine Workouts Matter?

djnemo65 · 01-30-2007, 12:58 AM

Yeah, but you could also make a list of great players who flopped at the combine who commenced to flop in the pros. My point is that a certain percentage of players are busts and there's nothing you can do about it. The combine is just one more piece of the puzzle.

Gmanc711 · 01-30-2007, 06:10 AM

I've always hated how players stock increased so much through the combine especially; and the senior bowl. I think there is nothing more that shows than the play on the feild in why you should or shouldnt bring someone on your team (see Archulletta,Adam).

I just think on the feild production means so much more.

Master4Caster · 01-30-2007, 10:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gmanc711

I've always hated how players stock increased so much through the combine especially; and the senior bowl. I think there is nothing more that shows than the play on the feild in why you should or shouldnt bring someone on your team (see Archulletta,Adam).

I just think on the feild production means so much more.

Gmanc, you have a point, but Archuleta doesn't prove it. He's here as a free agent pick-up, not as a draftee who shot up the ranks thru a good combine. Arch had on-field production on tape to look at. Taylor Jacobs, on the other hand, . . . !

Were you saying that Adam's play on the field with the Rams was reason not to bring him here? Which begs the question, did anyone in Ashburn study the tapes?

marius · 01-31-2007, 05:54 AM

I've always thought that looking at a players 40 yard dash time is ridiculous. Wouldn't a 10 yard dash be more useful and relevant to what actually happens in a game? Explosive speed of the mark is better than speed over a relatively long distance for most players.

Redskins8588 · 01-31-2007, 06:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by marius

I've always thought that looking at a players 40 yard dash time is ridiculous. Wouldn't a 10 yard dash be more useful and relevant to what actually happens in a game? Explosive speed of the mark is better than speed over a relatively long distance for most players.

I kinda agree but I think it is positional based. I mean a 40 yard dash is more relevant for WR'S, RB'S, CB'S, S, LB'S, and even TE to an extent. Where I think that a 10 yard dash would be better for your OL and DL players and even QB's.

That Guy · 01-31-2007, 01:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by marius

I've always thought that looking at a players 40 yard dash time is ridiculous. Wouldn't a 10 yard dash be more useful and relevant to what actually happens in a game? Explosive speed of the mark is better than speed over a relatively long distance for most players.

they take 10, 20, and 40 times... and sometimes 60 or 100 yard times in addition.

Schneed10 · 01-31-2007, 01:32 PM

The only thing the combine is good for is collecting accurate height and weight measurements. A 40 yard dash is different from running in a football game; so much of your time depends upon your start, which is a track & field skill, not a football skill. Players run at different speeds when in pads, some go faster, some go slower.

Vertical leap is not very meaningful either. How high a player jumps is not the most important thing; it's the timing of his jump and how he adjusts to the ball in the air, and how he uses his body to shield defenders.

Bench press: meaningless. Players use leg strength when blocking and tackling a lot more than they use upper body strength.

Now the Senior Bowl, I think that can be meaningful. You can see players playing football. But I wouldn't put much stock in how coachable they are during the Senior Bowl, of course they'll put their best foot forward during that week to help them get more money.

In the end, watching the players play college games is the #1 way to evaluate them.

That Guy · 01-31-2007, 04:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Schneed10

The only thing the combine is good for is collecting accurate height and weight measurements. A 40 yard dash is different from running in a football game; so much of your time depends upon your start, which is a track & field skill, not a football skill. Players run at different speeds when in pads, some go faster, some go slower.

Vertical leap is not very meaningful either. How high a player jumps is not the most important thing; it's the timing of his jump and how he adjusts to the ball in the air, and how he uses his body to shield defenders.

Bench press: meaningless. Players use leg strength when blocking and tackling a lot more than they use upper body strength.

Now the Senior Bowl, I think that can be meaningful. You can see players playing football. But I wouldn't put much stock in how coachable they are during the Senior Bowl, of course they'll put their best foot forward during that week to help them get more money.

In the end, watching the players play college games is the #1 way to evaluate them.

and what about the senior bowl practices/one on one drills? the combine drill work? i've yet to hear a valid debunking of that, meaning there's at least some real value.

and things like 40 times are a semi useful stat - if one guy runs a 4.3, and another runs a 4.6, its pretty obvious which one is faster, even in pads. If someone runs a 4.35 and another guy runs a 4.31, obviously, the 40 times shouldn't be used as a basis for who to draft. either way, its just a piece to give you an idea of what potential maximums might be. game film is always the most important thing though - but sometimes that's hard to judge because of the competition (cooley played an awkward b-back position in div II, didn't he?).

oh yeah, we drafted carlos rodgers because of his cone times - oops.

Sheriff Gonna Getcha · 01-31-2007, 04:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by That Guy

and what about the senior bowl practices/one on one drills? the combine drill work? i've yet to hear a valid debunking of that, meaning there's at least some real value.

One-on-one drills reveal little about a player's football intelligence, courage, etc (i.e. the mental component). It's a heck of a lot easier for a WR to look good when he knows he's not going to be blindsided by a safety coming over the top. Such practices also don't reveal how DBs play in zone coverages. They don't reveal how OLs pick up unexpected blitzes. They don't reveal how LBs fight through traffic. The list goes on.

Don't get me wrong, I think there is some value in drills at the Senior Bowl and the combine, but that value is overhyped and minimal. If I ran a scouting team, I would definately send people to the Senior Bowl and Combine, but I would focus 99% of my energy on reviewing game tape.

That Guy · 01-31-2007, 07:54 PM

and when the tape is of division II or III talent?

Sheriff Gonna Getcha · 01-31-2007, 08:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by That Guy

and when the tape is of division II or III talent?

Yeah, I guess the Senior Bowl and combine matters more for those guys. Again, I'm not saying the Senior Bowl and Combine are totally worthless, just seriously overhyped.

Schneed10 · 01-31-2007, 09:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by That Guy

and what about the senior bowl practices/one on one drills? the combine drill work? i've yet to hear a valid debunking of that, meaning there's at least some real value.

and things like 40 times are a semi useful stat - if one guy runs a 4.3, and another runs a 4.6, its pretty obvious which one is faster, even in pads. If someone runs a 4.35 and another guy runs a 4.31, obviously, the 40 times shouldn't be used as a basis for who to draft. either way, its just a piece to give you an idea of what potential maximums might be. game film is always the most important thing though - but sometimes that's hard to judge because of the competition (cooley played an awkward b-back position in div II, didn't he?).

oh yeah, we drafted carlos rodgers because of his cone times - oops.

But why do we care what the 40 times are, or how they perform in drills, when we can simply watch them play football on game tape?? If they're fast, it will show. If they're quick and agile, it will show. If they can jump, it will show.

It's not that 40 times aren't mildly useful, it's that they pale in comparison to the real question: can these guys play football?

You don't answer that in drills, you don't answer that in workouts, you don't answer it at the combine. You answer it by playing football and showing you're good at it. The media and the internet overhype the combine and other workouts because libraries of game tape aren't readily available to their readers.

Putting stock in combine results is nothing short of retarded. Some guys played football well, and had good combine results. But you don't draft them because of the combine results. You draft them because they play football well. This stuff means jack squat.

That Guy · 02-01-2007, 10:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Schneed10

But why do we care what the 40 times are, or how they perform in drills, when we can simply watch them play football on game tape?? If they're fast, it will show. If they're quick and agile, it will show. If they can jump, it will show.

It's not that 40 times aren't mildly useful, it's that they pale in comparison to the real question: can these guys play football?

You don't answer that in drills, you don't answer that in workouts, you don't answer it at the combine. You answer it by playing football and showing you're good at it. The media and the internet overhype the combine and other workouts because libraries of game tape aren't readily available to their readers.

Putting stock in combine results is nothing short of retarded. Some guys played football well, and had good combine results. But you don't draft them because of the combine results. You draft them because they play football well. This stuff means jack squat.

and again, that tape will show almost nothing in div II or div III where lots of players running 4.8s make 4.5 guys look like lightning. saying its totally worthless is completely retarded. its only a piece, but just dismissing it outright is awfully short sighted.

i mean, doughty had 120+ tackles, but he's slow and wouldn't be a good starting safety, even though he obviously played football well and had good tape. meanwhile cooley had 1260 yards receiving in div II and turned out to be great...

Schneed10 · 02-01-2007, 11:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by That Guy

and again, that tape will show almost nothing in div II or div III where lots of players running 4.8s make 4.5 guys look like lightning. saying its totally worthless is completely retarded. its only a piece, but just dismissing it outright is awfully short sighted.

i mean, doughty had 120+ tackles, but he's slow and wouldn't be a good starting safety, even though he obviously played football well and had good tape. meanwhile cooley had 1260 yards receiving in div II and turned out to be great...

It can't be dismissed outright, you're right, it serves a SMALL purpose. But watching a D II or D III player on film is still more valuable than testing his 40 time on a track. Speed isn't everything. Doughty was not drafted to be a starting safety. He was drafted because he is a tremendous form tackler, and he showed ON GAME TAPE that he has absolutely no fear when running down the field on kickoff coverage. And he made several great special teams plays for us.

NFL Scouts spend the majority of their time traveling to watch players play in games, or watching game film of them. So why the hell do fans spend so much time focusing on workout results? You'd get a lot more information by watching game film. If you're putting any more time into the workout results than simply glancing over the 40 times and checking the height and weight, then you're wasting your time.

And besides, how many D II or D III players get considered? It's 90-95% D I players you're scouting. Game tape of them shows how they look against their peers.

dmek25 · 02-01-2007, 02:47 PM

i think alot of the importance on the 40 times is because alot of the schools always inflate numbers to make some of the players look that much better

01-30-2007, 12:58 AM	#16
djnemo65 Playmaker Join Date: May 2004 Location: MA Age: 32 Posts: 2,836	Re: Should the Senior Bowl or the Combine Workouts Matter? Yeah, but you could also make a list of great players who flopped at the combine who commenced to flop in the pros. My point is that a certain percentage of players are busts and there's nothing you can do about it. The combine is just one more piece of the puzzle.

01-30-2007, 06:10 AM	#17
Gmanc711 Thank You, Sean. Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Gaithersburg, MD Age: 27 Posts: 7,360	Re: Should the Senior Bowl or the Combine Workouts Matter? I've always hated how players stock increased so much through the combine especially; and the senior bowl. I think there is nothing more that shows than the play on the feild in why you should or shouldnt bring someone on your team (see Archulletta,Adam). I just think on the feild production means so much more. __________________ #21

01-31-2007, 05:54 AM	#19
marius Special Teams Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 136	Re: Should the Senior Bowl or the Combine Workouts Matter? I've always thought that looking at a players 40 yard dash time is ridiculous. Wouldn't a 10 yard dash be more useful and relevant to what actually happens in a game? Explosive speed of the mark is better than speed over a relatively long distance for most players.

01-31-2007, 01:32 PM	#22
Schneed10 RG Glee Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Newtown Square, PA Age: 33 Posts: 7,894	Re: Should the Senior Bowl or the Combine Workouts Matter? The only thing the combine is good for is collecting accurate height and weight measurements. A 40 yard dash is different from running in a football game; so much of your time depends upon your start, which is a track & field skill, not a football skill. Players run at different speeds when in pads, some go faster, some go slower. Vertical leap is not very meaningful either. How high a player jumps is not the most important thing; it's the timing of his jump and how he adjusts to the ball in the air, and how he uses his body to shield defenders. Bench press: meaningless. Players use leg strength when blocking and tackling a lot more than they use upper body strength. Now the Senior Bowl, I think that can be meaningful. You can see players playing football. But I wouldn't put much stock in how coachable they are during the Senior Bowl, of course they'll put their best foot forward during that week to help them get more money. In the end, watching the players play college games is the #1 way to evaluate them. __________________ Skins' Salary Cap Status \| CrazyCanuck's Cap Figures by Player \| Salary Cap 101

01-31-2007, 07:54 PM	#25
That Guy Living Legend Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Springfield, VA Age: 30 Posts: 15,622	Re: Should the Senior Bowl or the Combine Workouts Matter? and when the tape is of division II or III talent? __________________ Who says shameless self promotion is stupid? oh yeah, that was me... Click For Tunes!

02-01-2007, 02:47 PM	#30
dmek25 MVP Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: lancaster,pa Age: 51 Posts: 10,439	Re: Should the Senior Bowl or the Combine Workouts Matter? i think alot of the importance on the 40 times is because alot of the schools always inflate numbers to make some of the players look that much better __________________ "It's better to be quiet and thought a fool than to open ones mouth and remove all doubt." courtesy of 53fan

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Should the Senior Bowl or the Combine Workouts Matter?

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