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Mark Sanchez at 13th?

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Old 04-16-2009, 07:01 PM   #301
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Re: Mark Sanchez at 13th?

If we can all agree that we don't want Sanchez- and that QB is not a position of need, we have nothing to worry about as there is 0 chance (so i've been told- thanks Masshole) that he will fall to 13. The only we have to worry about is doing something stupid, like trading up for him.
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Old 04-16-2009, 07:13 PM   #302
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Re: Mark Sanchez at 13th?

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Originally Posted by SmootSmack View Post
Agreed. We can't and shouldn't try to fill all our needs now. And of course, you go with the best player available in the first round...but the BPA at a position of need. And at some point we need to start addressing the lack of youth on the OL, DEs, even LB and RB.
BPA at a position of need? Mark Sanchez fits the bill. QB is arguably the biggest position of need on our team.

People keep saying that Jason Campbell has consistenly improved; that if he gets a better O-line, more consistent play from his receivers, more time in a system, more explosive play from the running back position, more this, more that... that he'll become a solid NFL QB. Well, if you gave every 2nd and 3rd string QB in the NFL all of that, they'd probably be "solid" QBs as well. Some things are stronger than others, but theres not a single team in the NFL that doesnt have multiple needs.

The truth is, no QB gets the "perfect" environment. People keep saying over and over again that Tom Brady would be horrible on this team, behind this line and with these receivers, but that's the biggest load of crap i've ever heard. Tom Brady makes good decisions. Tom Brady knows when to throw the football. Tom Brady knows when to take a chance. Tom Brady looks deep and makes it through his reads... you get my drift. If Tom Brady came here, he might take a few more sacks; he might not get quite as many yards or completions, but he would still be Tom Brady and he would still be one of the top 3 QBs in the league The truth is, guys like Tom Brady don't rely on everything around them being just right... guys like Tom Brady have "the intangibles." Guys like Tom Brady INSPIRE everyone around them. Guys like Tom Brady MAKE everyone around them better.

If you took a poll of the 31 teams in the NFL not named the New England Patriots - the 31 teams that passed on him atleast 5 times, and you asked them if they could go back and do the 2000 draft over again, atleast 30 of them would take Tom Brady with their 1st pick - regardless of what other "needs" they felt were more pressing at the time. Why? Because they know what a guy like Tom Brady can do. They know that a QB is the most important position in all of sports - and when you get a guy like that, you can build an entire team around him and have long-success. Mark Sanchez is that kind of player.

If the Skins dont get Sanchez, they will be looking for a new coach AND a new quarterback in 2010 anyways, because they felt some other need was more pressing. Some people may not feel QB is the teams most pressing need in 2009, but if you can look beyond the season as many people have criticized the FO for failing to do in the past, you will understand why QB IS a pressing need for this team.
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Old 04-16-2009, 07:28 PM   #303
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Re: Mark Sanchez at 13th?

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Agreed. We can't and shouldn't try to fill all our needs now. And of course, you go with the best player available in the first round...but the BPA at a position of need. And at some point we need to start addressing the lack of youth on the OL, DEs, even LB and RB.
Agreed. And I think that point should be NOW.
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Old 04-16-2009, 07:37 PM   #304
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Re: Mark Sanchez at 13th?

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Well it's not anything unique to Snyder's M.O. that we'd allegedly gotten away from. He's flash over function, style over substance. Not to say that Sanchez is not functional nor having substance, but regardless of the side of the fence we sit on in the Campbell debate, we can all agree he's not a 'sexy' QB. He doesn't have the personality or 'Madison Avenue' presence that Snyder seems to crave and covet. If Snyder can get a player of comparable or better skills and abilities that's a bigger name, he's going to pounce. I really think he'd love to have a top 3 pick so he could make a splash with a 'franchise' QB, regardless of if he panned out or not just so he could stand next to him at the press conference and say 'I did this'.

I don't think it's purely football reasons that Snyder is ready to move on from Campbell, otherwise we would have been more actively pursuing all QB options this offseason rather than just getting in on Cutler and now seemingly infatuated with Sanchez.

His lack of football knowledge manifests in not realizing that whomever is at QB will face the same issues and challenges at the QB position if the OL isn't addressed.
Two statements from this post:

1. Snyder seems to want the Clinton Portis version of a QB -- as you said, everything that Jason Campbell isn't.

2. Could it be that Snyder and Cerrato in their hearts don't think the OL is as bad as we do?
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Old 04-16-2009, 07:55 PM   #305
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Re: Mark Sanchez at 13th?

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Originally Posted by BigHairedAristocrat View Post
BPA at a position of need? Mark Sanchez fits the bill. QB is arguably the biggest position of need on our team.

People keep saying that Jason Campbell has consistenly improved; that if he gets a better O-line, more consistent play from his receivers, more time in a system, more explosive play from the running back position, more this, more that... that he'll become a solid NFL QB. Well, if you gave every 2nd and 3rd string QB in the NFL all of that, they'd probably be "solid" QBs as well. Some things are stronger than others, but theres not a single team in the NFL that doesnt have multiple needs.

The truth is, no QB gets the "perfect" environment. People keep saying over and over again that Tom Brady would be horrible on this team, behind this line and with these receivers, but that's the biggest load of crap i've ever heard. Tom Brady makes good decisions. Tom Brady knows when to throw the football. Tom Brady knows when to take a chance. Tom Brady looks deep and makes it through his reads... you get my drift. If Tom Brady came here, he might take a few more sacks; he might not get quite as many yards or completions, but he would still be Tom Brady and he would still be one of the top 3 QBs in the league The truth is, guys like Tom Brady don't rely on everything around them being just right... guys like Tom Brady have "the intangibles." Guys like Tom Brady INSPIRE everyone around them. Guys like Tom Brady MAKE everyone around them better.

If you took a poll of the 31 teams in the NFL not named the New England Patriots - the 31 teams that passed on him atleast 5 times, and you asked them if they could go back and do the 2000 draft over again, atleast 30 of them would take Tom Brady with their 1st pick - regardless of what other "needs" they felt were more pressing at the time. Why? Because they know what a guy like Tom Brady can do. They know that a QB is the most important position in all of sports - and when you get a guy like that, you can build an entire team around him and have long-success. Mark Sanchez is that kind of player.

If the Skins dont get Sanchez, they will be looking for a new coach AND a new quarterback in 2010 anyways, because they felt some other need was more pressing. Some people may not feel QB is the teams most pressing need in 2009, but if you can look beyond the season as many people have criticized the FO for failing to do in the past, you will understand why QB IS a pressing need for this team.
You're regressing, BHA.

You're also missing the point on Brady. He, himself, wouldn't be any worse of a quarterback here than in New England. He, himself, would be the same guy. He just wouldn't win as much or make as many pro bowls as he would playing for NE. It wouldn't be his fault. I'm sure when we're 10-6 and exiting from the playoffs in the wild card round, you'll be all over Brady for his inspirational demeanor and his ability to make Santana Moss look a little bit better than he really is. Championship!

And then there's the assumption that Mark Sanchez is basically Tom Brady, and/or would have a Brady-like inspirational effect on the Redskins. Well, uh, not exactly.

Here's the deal, I enjoy you're refreshing forward induction approach here, but it's unnecessary. I don't care what system you run. You simply don't replace a 27 year old QB with similar value to Campbell if you:

a) know what you are doing
b) don't have a really, really problematic externality (can't contact your QB)

That's the problem in a nutshell. You're saying that QB will be a problem in the future, and we should address it now. That's simply not the case, contract issues aside. You have to go forward under the assumption that Jason Campbell can't go anywhere in 2010 unless the team chooses a different path. If the team is at that point right now, it's very clear they have no idea what they are doing.



Oh, and teams would not pass over Tom Brady again because he's really good, i.e. better than Sanchez will ever be. Not for any other cosmic reason.
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Old 04-16-2009, 07:59 PM   #306
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Re: Mark Sanchez at 13th?

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Originally Posted by Paintrain View Post
I guess I have to agree with you on that point at this exact moment but I really believe that at the end of the season Moss, Thomas and Kelly will be better than Curtis, Jackson and Baskett/Greg Lewis. If they get a Boldin or Edwards they are ahead of us too. If with what we picked last year we can't be better than the Eagles WR we are in a major world of hurt.
Totally agreed. Don't worry though, Mark Sanchez will save us.
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Old 04-16-2009, 08:03 PM   #307
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Re: Mark Sanchez at 13th?

Oh and by the way, if the front office didn't think they could win with Jason Campbell, they wouldn't have gone after Albert Haynesworth. It's clear as day that their opinion of him has taken a hit over the course of the offseason while no football has been played. That's the number one piece of evidence that they don't seem to really have a clear direction -- non-events have altered that direction.
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Old 04-16-2009, 08:08 PM   #308
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Re: Mark Sanchez at 13th?

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Originally Posted by BigHairedAristocrat View Post
The vast majority of the paid professionals think Sanchez is the real deal. Trent Dilfer compared him to Tom Brady and said he's the best, most ready to start QB in this draft AND the next. The only thing he's been criticized for is entering the draft this year... and its not because he's too raw to start in 2009 - its because he's losing millions of dollars because if he came out next year, he'd be the consensus #1 pick. (ok, of course he's been criticized for other aspects of his game, but no more than other prospective 1st round QBs entering the NFL).
Other "real deals" according to similar experts:

Ryan Leaf
Akili Smith
Cade McNown
Joey Harrington
Alex Smith
Vince Young
JaMarcus Russell

But on the other side, if our line magically improves with the picks we're not using on it, we could make any of those guys look decent.
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Old 04-16-2009, 08:23 PM   #309
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Re: Mark Sanchez at 13th?

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Originally Posted by BigHairedAristocrat View Post
BPA at a position of need? Mark Sanchez fits the bill. QB is arguably the biggest position of need on our team.

People keep saying that Jason Campbell has consistenly improved; that if he gets a better O-line, more consistent play from his receivers, more time in a system, more explosive play from the running back position, more this, more that... that he'll become a solid NFL QB. Well, if you gave every 2nd and 3rd string QB in the NFL all of that, they'd probably be "solid" QBs as well. Some things are stronger than others, but theres not a single team in the NFL that doesnt have multiple needs.

The truth is, no QB gets the "perfect" environment. People keep saying over and over again that Tom Brady would be horrible on this team, behind this line and with these receivers, but that's the biggest load of crap i've ever heard. Tom Brady makes good decisions. Tom Brady knows when to throw the football. Tom Brady knows when to take a chance. Tom Brady looks deep and makes it through his reads... you get my drift.


86.5
85.7
85.9

Those are Tom Brady's numbers through his first three years starting. He didn't take off until his fourth year as a starter, 5th year in the league.

82.5 was Phillip Rivers' Qb rating last year. It was 105.5 this year, his fifth year in the league. Drew Brees in his first and second years starting went 76.9/67.5 then in his third year starting, fourth in the league, he went 104.7. Brett Favre 85.3, 72.9 in his first two years starting, took off in his 4th year. In 2001, Peyton Manning, in his fourth year as a starter and in the league, went 6-10 with the Colts, posted an 84.1 QB rating (about the same as Campbell's this year), then went 88.1 the next, and in his 6th year got to 99 and never looked back or went under that, nor did the Colts go anything less than 12-4 once he was locked in.

Are we seeing a trend?

Franchise QB's don't just come out ready made. Rothlesberger won early because he inherited a team that was STACKED and just needed a QB. Ryan was good, but we'll see what happens this year after teams have made adjustments. Franchise Qb's take time, they take patience and they take coaching before you get them to that level. Now, Brady experienced more on field success early then he should have because Bellichik cheated (no seriously. they played WAY over their stats, they had no business winning as many games as they did based on all of their efficiency stats. They cheated and besides completely undermining the integrity of the game, the reason the NFL won't do anything more than take away a draft pick and sweep it under the rug is because what happens in Vegas, stays in Vegas, namely paid out Super Bowl bets that would become defunct if further investigative action was taking).

However, the fact that he cheated doesn't negate the fact that Bellichik is, along with Bill Walsh, the best Coach/football mind in the modern era. And for all intents and purposes, Montana and Brady are considered the best QB's of the era (though I personally view Brady with a large astericks for the early work, now he's clearly a beast). So you can play the chicken and the egg game with them, but considering the two best qb's ever were starters at big name schools and still fell to the lower rounds tells me that many teams scouted them both and passed them over. So did all these professional scouts just miss something? Or did these two football geniuses take good qb's and make them great?

I mean, I don't necessarily know the answer to that, but what I do know is, statistically speaking, Franchise QB's make the leap between their 4th and 6th years in the league on average, and Campbell's about to hit 5th year, and really only just completed his first full season starting. So if he were a Franchise Qb (and I fully believe he has that potential), we would have only seen flashes of it by now, not the full package (like say, when he started 08 with a 100.7 QB Rating and beat the Cowboys and the Eagles with masterful performances on the road, or the Cardinals, or the comeback win against the Saints, to name a few). Bottom line is, it sure seems like you have to give qb's anywhere from 3-5 years to see what you've got, and we keep insisting on judging them in 2. And we don't win anything and haven't since Danny got here, and we ask why. That's why.
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Old 04-16-2009, 08:41 PM   #310
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Re: Mark Sanchez at 13th?

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Originally Posted by SmootSmack View Post
Zorn pushing hard for Sanchez by the way...again allegedly.
If this is true i find it surprising.
Danny pushing hard for Sanchez i get but Zorn?
Zorn is a QB coach whose claim to fame is the ability to develop a QB.
I would think that a position coach hangs their hats on the ability to coach a player up. Like coaches Gray/Jackson did with Doughty and Horton, or Olividotti with Blades, or Williams/Blache with Monty and Golston or Buges with a list too long to mention.
It seems odd for a QB coach to draft a QB with a high pick when he is currently developing a QB and that development is supposed to be his forte.
(like a mechanic who doesn't restore his own cars)

Also, Zorn stirkes me as a honest guy, almost to a fault.
Granted i have no access and i'm only juding based on interviews and post game pressers.
But, he doesn't seem like the kind of guy who gives his word lightly and to throw his support behind Campbell then push for Sanchez doesn't fit my impression of Zorn.

One statement about Campbell form Zorn that i never forget came from Matt Mosley last summer:

What's in Mosley's Mailbag? - NFC East - ESPN
Mosley: Albert, you were actually 6,002, but I like the way you phrased your question (praised my work). Jim Zorn didn't come right out and say this to me, but I know for a fact that he's told Campbell he's poised to become a perennial Pro Bowl quarterback.
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Old 04-16-2009, 09:12 PM   #311
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Re: Mark Sanchez at 13th?

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Originally Posted by BigHairedAristocrat View Post
BPA at a position of need? Mark Sanchez fits the bill. QB is arguably the biggest position of need on our team.

People keep saying that Jason Campbell has consistenly improved; that if he gets a better O-line, more consistent play from his receivers, more time in a system, more explosive play from the running back position, more this, more that... that he'll become a solid NFL QB. Well, if you gave every 2nd and 3rd string QB in the NFL all of that, they'd probably be "solid" QBs as well. Some things are stronger than others, but theres not a single team in the NFL that doesnt have multiple needs.

The truth is, no QB gets the "perfect" environment. People keep saying over and over again that Tom Brady would be horrible on this team, behind this line and with these receivers, but that's the biggest load of crap i've ever heard. Tom Brady makes good decisions. Tom Brady knows when to throw the football. Tom Brady knows when to take a chance. Tom Brady looks deep and makes it through his reads... you get my drift. If Tom Brady came here, he might take a few more sacks; he might not get quite as many yards or completions, but he would still be Tom Brady and he would still be one of the top 3 QBs in the league The truth is, guys like Tom Brady don't rely on everything around them being just right... guys like Tom Brady have "the intangibles." Guys like Tom Brady INSPIRE everyone around them. Guys like Tom Brady MAKE everyone around them better.

If you took a poll of the 31 teams in the NFL not named the New England Patriots - the 31 teams that passed on him atleast 5 times, and you asked them if they could go back and do the 2000 draft over again, atleast 30 of them would take Tom Brady with their 1st pick - regardless of what other "needs" they felt were more pressing at the time. Why? Because they know what a guy like Tom Brady can do. They know that a QB is the most important position in all of sports - and when you get a guy like that, you can build an entire team around him and have long-success. Mark Sanchez is that kind of player.
OMG yeah that's why Brady looked like a below average QB when the dominant NY defense pressured or sacked him all game SB before last Seriously bro, seriously think about what you're saying. Protection and WR talent don't matter?! Are you just angry about something else altogether? Why ignore historical fact and reality toward a point that doesn't prove anything.

...most QBs in the league can be quite good when surrounded by phenomenal talent and great protection. It's that simple. A very small handful can "will" their way to success in lesser conditions. Tom Brady is not among that group. Belichick, aside from the year Reche Caldwell was NE's #1 WR, has always surrounded his QB w/ awesome talent and truly phenomenal pass protection. I would put Brees and even Dono way ahead in that category compared to Brady.
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Old 04-16-2009, 09:13 PM   #312
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Re: Mark Sanchez at 13th?

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Originally Posted by BigHairedAristocrat View Post
BPA at a position of need? Mark Sanchez fits the bill. QB is arguably the biggest position of need on our team.

People keep saying that Jason Campbell has consistenly improved; that if he gets a better O-line, more consistent play from his receivers, more time in a system, more explosive play from the running back position, more this, more that... that he'll become a solid NFL QB. Well, if you gave every 2nd and 3rd string QB in the NFL all of that, they'd probably be "solid" QBs as well. Some things are stronger than others, but theres not a single team in the NFL that doesnt have multiple needs.

The truth is, no QB gets the "perfect" environment. People keep saying over and over again that Tom Brady would be horrible on this team, behind this line and with these receivers, but that's the biggest load of crap i've ever heard. Tom Brady makes good decisions. Tom Brady knows when to throw the football. Tom Brady knows when to take a chance. Tom Brady looks deep and makes it through his reads... you get my drift. If Tom Brady came here, he might take a few more sacks; he might not get quite as many yards or completions, but he would still be Tom Brady and he would still be one of the top 3 QBs in the league The truth is, guys like Tom Brady don't rely on everything around them being just right... guys like Tom Brady have "the intangibles." Guys like Tom Brady INSPIRE everyone around them. Guys like Tom Brady MAKE everyone around them better.

If you took a poll of the 31 teams in the NFL not named the New England Patriots - the 31 teams that passed on him atleast 5 times, and you asked them if they could go back and do the 2000 draft over again, atleast 30 of them would take Tom Brady with their 1st pick - regardless of what other "needs" they felt were more pressing at the time. Why? Because they know what a guy like Tom Brady can do. They know that a QB is the most important position in all of sports - and when you get a guy like that, you can build an entire team around him and have long-success. Mark Sanchez is that kind of player.

If the Skins dont get Sanchez, they will be looking for a new coach AND a new quarterback in 2010 anyways, because they felt some other need was more pressing. Some people may not feel QB is the teams most pressing need in 2009, but if you can look beyond the season as many people have criticized the FO for failing to do in the past, you will understand why QB IS a pressing need for this team.
BHA, your disdain for Campbell is clearly evident and we get that. To say that QB is our biggest position of need is just flat out wrong. If that were the case, we would have pushed for any viable QB 'improvement' out there. We would have been in on Rosenfels, we would have been in on Cassell, we would have been in sooner on Cutler. I honestly believe that if Cutler hadn't have been available we wouldn't be on Sanchez now. Danny didn't get what he wanted in Cutler, now he's been tantalized by the taste of a flashy QB and he sees a QB (marquee position) from USC (marquee program) and he's got the starry eyes.

At this point, I almost want Campbell to go somewhere else and blossom into a star just to prove how ridiculous and impatient our fan base and ownership are. Some people think Campbell has peaked, I think he's far from his peak. I keep drawing the correlation between his first couple of years and Drew Brees first couple of years, very similar on the field and off. I'd hate to have that kind of production being racked up elsewhere down the road but it would serve us right.
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Old 04-16-2009, 09:45 PM   #313
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Re: Mark Sanchez at 13th?

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BHA, your disdain for Campbell is clearly evident and we get that. To say that QB is our biggest position of need is just flat out wrong. If that were the case, we would have pushed for any viable QB 'improvement' out there. We would have been in on Rosenfels, we would have been in on Cassell, we would have been in sooner on Cutler. I honestly believe that if Cutler hadn't have been available we wouldn't be on Sanchez now. Danny didn't get what he wanted in Cutler, now he's been tantalized by the taste of a flashy QB and he sees a QB (marquee position) from USC (marquee program) and he's got the starry eyes.

At this point, I almost want Campbell to go somewhere else and blossom into a star just to prove how ridiculous and impatient our fan base and ownership are. Some people think Campbell has peaked, I think he's far from his peak. I keep drawing the correlation between his first couple of years and Drew Brees first couple of years, very similar on the field and off. I'd hate to have that kind of production being racked up elsewhere down the road but it would serve us right.
I hear you, but how long should you have to wait in this league? Falcons fans didn't have to wait as long as we have. At some point JC will have to make things happen with what he has around him. Other QBs have done more with less. We can't wait for perfect surroundings for JC before he shows us something more than we've seen.

I'm not saying dump Campbell in favor of Sanchez, but this year has to be put up or shut up. No more excuses.

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Old 04-16-2009, 09:54 PM   #314
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Re: Mark Sanchez at 13th?

I actually heard Portis say something smart on ESPN and it got me thinking. When he was asked whether he thought Campbell could be a franchise QB he said yes. He basically said he had the size and talent. He also said if you take away Santana Moss you'd probably have a hard time naming the Skins receivers over the past 5 years. He's right. All of Campbells stats and QB ratings have improved every year he has played. And he has done this with S**T for wide receivers, with the exception of Moss, a constantly changing offensive system, and an aging o-line that cannot stay healthy. The more I think about it, the more I think it would be a big mistake to give up on Jason Campbell right now.
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Old 04-16-2009, 09:57 PM   #315
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Re: Mark Sanchez at 13th?

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I actually heard Portis say something smart on ESPN and it got me thinking. When he was asked whether he thought Campbell could be a franchise QB he said yes. He basically said he had the size and talent. He also said if you take away Santana Moss you'd probably have a hard time naming the Skins receivers over the past 5 years. He's right. All of Campbells stats and QB ratings have improved every year he has played. And he has done this with S**T for wide receivers, with the exception of Moss, a constantly changing offensive system, and an aging o-line that cannot stay healthy. The more I think about it, the more I think it would be a big mistake to give up on Jason Campbell right now.
Ouch. I wonder how Antwaan Randle El would react to those comments?

For some reason I don't put much stock into Clinton Portis as a talent evaluator.
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