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What is RG3 worth to us?

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Old 01-02-2012, 10:58 PM   #31
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Re: What is RG3 worth to us?

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Originally Posted by Paintrain View Post
Math is your friend. We have the #6 pick, the highest we would need to get to is #2, that's 4 picks.

Also, why would you put a line behind the QB? Is this a new offense I'm unfamiliar with?

Ok, done messing with you.

That being said, I think you are forgetting about free agency. We can address 3 key positions in free agency-RT, WR, CB and still be flexible enough to make a move in the draft if we need to.

Realistically, the price will be similar to what the Giants gave up for Manning. Swap 1sts, send an additional 2nd and 4th plus next year 1st and 5th. Is it a lot? Sure it is. Is it worth it if he solves the QB position for the next decade? You bet your ass it is..

Here's the thing with the 'we can't afford to give up picks' argument. It doesn't matter how many picks you have or really where it is in the draft. It matters what you do with them. We saw Vinny squander 10 picks in 2008 that crippled this team. That should have been a foundation for the next 8 years, instead we have a tight end who is a joint away from a year suspension and that's it! Over the past 2 years we've picked 18 players and 12 will likely be contributing to the team for years. Because of that, we don't need a full draft class to come in and play, we can afford to make a move for a position of need.
I'm hoping your joking here.

If not, let me grill you like I will grill everyone else on this board who suggest using FA in a rebuilding way.

You use Free Agency if you have quick-patch fixes on your team. You're never going to have continuity if your always bringing in new guys.

Free agency can also be cancerous to your team. Albert Haynesworth. He got paid and quit playing. Adam Archuleta. He got paid and became a bench player. Brandon Lloyd. He never scored a TD in his career with us. Dana Stublefield. OJ Atogwe. We paid him; he has now been benched.

Green Bay. Pittsburgh. New Orleans. New England. Baltimore. New York. Atlanta. Now Houston and Detroit. What do these teams have in common? They build their teams through the draft and are in the playoffs (with most of these teams in the playoffs year in and year out.

Do you know how many starters/big name FA's all 7 teams signed?
A Combined 8. That's an average of 1 per team, with Green Bay and Pitt signing 0.

Look back to 09. The saints were weak at one area, secondary. They went out and signed Darren Sharper and Jabarri Greer. That went from a weakness to a strength. Now their in the playoffs every year, cause they had a Quick Fix which could be done in FA. (They also didn't go out an get the Big name guys like Dawkins or Dunta Robinson.)

Baltimore for as long as I can remember, signs one Free Agent every year, so that they can maintain continuity.

Green Bay has every single starter on their offense Drafted by them. Not one single FA.

Philly this year pulled a Redskins signing Nnamdi, Cullen Jenkins, Steve Smith, Vince Young, Ronnie Brown, (and traded for DRC). How did that work?

Free Agency was made, like I said as a 'oh we need just a CB and a veteran WR that knows what he's doing.' No as a "we need a CB, RB, WR, QB, ILB, OT, OG, we can address as much of that as we can in FA and the rest in the draft since that comes after FA."


Now I understand you say we get just 3 positions in FA and the rest in the draft, but already thats 1 maybe 2 positions more than we need to get in Free Agency instead of the draft. This is that super bowl mentality of 'well we need these couple of positions in FA and the rest in the draft, then we'll be a better team.'

No we won't be better, we are about 13 positions away from becoming a 'contender'. So with that said, we need to go the old MAX of 2 Free Agents an offseason, and draft and develop what we got and evaluate what else we need the next offseason.


So, to summarize; Don't suggest we need to get more than 2 guys in FA relating back to old bad habbits, because that, in part is one of the reasons we're bad, and I'm just going to copy and paste this post to the next skins fan who 'truly' wants us to get better by us using an old bad habit of addressing multiple needs in FA, to 'solve' our problems.
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Old 01-02-2012, 11:26 PM   #32
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Re: What is RG3 worth to us?

New Orleans and Houston got their QBs through free agency. If the team is going to go after Luck or even RG3, they will need to sacrifice picks and fill other holes through free agency. There's a big difference between Vinny's way of free agency and a normal GM's way. Aside from the boneheaded moves at QB, our front office has shown some good judgement in terms of free agency.
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Old 01-02-2012, 11:29 PM   #33
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Re: What is RG3 worth to us?

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I'm hoping your joking here.

If not, let me grill you like I will grill everyone else on this board who suggest using FA in a rebuilding way.

You use Free Agency if you have quick-patch fixes on your team. You're never going to have continuity if your always bringing in new guys.

Free agency can also be cancerous to your team. Albert Haynesworth. He got paid and quit playing. Adam Archuleta. He got paid and became a bench player. Brandon Lloyd. He never scored a TD in his career with us. Dana Stublefield. OJ Atogwe. We paid him; he has now been benched.

Green Bay. Pittsburgh. New Orleans. New England. Baltimore. New York. Atlanta. Now Houston and Detroit. What do these teams have in common? They build their teams through the draft and are in the playoffs (with most of these teams in the playoffs year in and year out.

Do you know how many starters/big name FA's all 7 teams signed?
A Combined 8. That's an average of 1 per team, with Green Bay and Pitt signing 0.

Look back to 09. The saints were weak at one area, secondary. They went out and signed Darren Sharper and Jabarri Greer. That went from a weakness to a strength. Now their in the playoffs every year, cause they had a Quick Fix which could be done in FA. (They also didn't go out an get the Big name guys like Dawkins or Dunta Robinson.)

Baltimore for as long as I can remember, signs one Free Agent every year, so that they can maintain continuity.

Green Bay has every single starter on their offense Drafted by them. Not one single FA.

Philly this year pulled a Redskins signing Nnamdi, Cullen Jenkins, Steve Smith, Vince Young, Ronnie Brown, (and traded for DRC). How did that work?

Free Agency was made, like I said as a 'oh we need just a CB and a veteran WR that knows what he's doing.' No as a "we need a CB, RB, WR, QB, ILB, OT, OG, we can address as much of that as we can in FA and the rest in the draft since that comes after FA."

Now I understand you say we get just 3 positions in FA and the rest in the draft, but already thats 1 maybe 2 positions more than we need to get in Free Agency instead of the draft. This is that super bowl mentality of 'well we need these couple of positions in FA and the rest in the draft, then we'll be a better team.'

No we won't be better, we are about 13 positions away from becoming a 'contender'. So with that said, we need to go the old MAX of 2 Free Agents an offseason, and draft and develop what we got and evaluate what else we need the next offseason.


So, to summarize; Don't suggest we need to get more than 2 guys in FA relating back to old bad habbits, because that, in part is one of the reasons we're bad, and I'm just going to copy and paste this post to the next skins fan who 'truly' wants us to get better by us using an old bad habit of addressing multiple needs in FA, to 'solve' our problems.
Not joking at all, which is why if you read what I wrote, I specified three positions where FA can help us rather than saying we can spend boldly to address the laundry list of positional need you mentioned.

There is no one way to rebuild a team. The Steelers and Packers are bad examples because they didn't REBUILD, they already had outstanding bases of talent that they are building upon. But even they have players that originated on other teams (Woodson, Ryan Grant, Ryan Clark) as well. They used free agency, just better than we have.

Signing free agents isn't a bad thing. Signing the WRONG free agents is. The Haynesworth, Archuleta (really? still using this example) argument is just lazy and frankly dumb. How did London Fletcher get to the Redskins, free agency. You mentioned Atlanta, Michael Turner-free agent, John Abraham-free agent.

Just as Kerrigan was a great draft pick, Kelly and Thomas were awful picks. As I said before, it doesn't matter how many picks you have, it's what you do with them. Same as free agency. Doesn't matter if you do 1, 2, 6, 8, 22. If you do it well and better than anyone else you'll have success.
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Old 01-02-2012, 11:34 PM   #34
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Re: What is RG3 worth to us?

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New Orleans and Houston got their QBs through free agency. If the team is going to go after Luck or even RG3, they will need to sacrifice picks and fill other holes through free agency. There's a big difference between Vinny's way of free agency and a normal GM's way. Aside from the boneheaded moves at QB, our front office has shown some good judgement in terms of free agency.
Not to be nit-picky, but Houston traded for Schaub, who was a guy who saw lots of playing time over the years, more than Matt Flynn has (not saying Flynns bad). And New Orleans signed a QB who was a starter for years, but suffered a injury. If Brees hadn't been injured, he probably would have been franchised and dealt. Point is that Brees's don't come out in free agency really ever or at all.

And our front office now is getting the hang of what to do FA wise and draft wise. Our old front office, with Vinny and Dan was not at all good with signing free agents. London Fletcher. Thats it. Guys like Haynesworth and Archuletta stick out a whole lot more than a great signing like London does.
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Old 01-02-2012, 11:43 PM   #35
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Re: What is RG3 worth to us?

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Not joking at all, which is why if you read what I wrote, I specified three positions where FA can help us rather than saying we can spend boldly to address the laundry list of positional need you mentioned.

There is no one way to rebuild a team. The Steelers and Packers are bad examples because they didn't REBUILD, they already had outstanding bases of talent that they are building upon. But even they have players that originated on other teams (Woodson, Ryan Grant, Ryan Clark) as well. They used free agency, just better than we have.

Signing free agents isn't a bad thing. Signing the WRONG free agents is. The Haynesworth, Archuleta (really? still using this example) argument is just lazy and frankly dumb. How did London Fletcher get to the Redskins, free agency. You mentioned Atlanta, Michael Turner-free agent, John Abraham-free agent.

Just as Kerrigan was a great draft pick, Kelly and Thomas were awful picks. As I said before, it doesn't matter how many picks you have, it's what you do with them. Same as free agency. Doesn't matter if you do 1, 2, 6, 8, 22. If you do it well and better than anyone else you'll have success.
1) And they had those bases, because they drafted well for years.
2) If you read my post, I said per season, not in the past 5-10 years.
3) You have too, especially if you hear names of headcase athletes like DeSean Jackson and Vincent Jackson mentioned in other FA posts.
3) whole other regime.
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Old 01-03-2012, 12:00 AM   #36
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Re: What is RG3 worth to us?

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Free agency can also be cancerous to your team. Albert Haynesworth. He got paid and quit playing. Adam Archuleta. He got paid and became a bench player. Brandon Lloyd. He never scored a TD in his career with us. Dana Stublefield. OJ Atogwe. We paid him; he has now been benched.

Green Bay. Pittsburgh. New Orleans. New England. Baltimore. New York. Atlanta. Now Houston and Detroit. What do these teams have in common? They build their teams through the draft and are in the playoffs (with most of these teams in the playoffs year in and year out.
pittsburg drafted holmes in the 1st and gave him away for a 5th. how did jeff george work out? bad picks are bad picks whether they're in the draft or FA, so let's be careful about the drafting is the only option routine. detriot? really? the team that went 0-16 and will get bounced from th playoffs in 2 games with about 42 top 5 picks... that's the example? how'd joey harrington work out btw?

the saints built through the draft? you mean like when they signed drew brees as a FA and finally ended about 432 years of losing?

new england signs FAs/trades pretty consistently. moss, dillon, ocho, welker, branch, etc etc.

the other three do draft well and are mainly comprised of picks.

but this last year we signed otagwe, wilson, cofield, bowen to big deals and tons of smaller deals (gaffney etc - FAR more than your 2 FA limit), and guess what? they worked out (otagwe is a meh).

we need 4 players - OL, QB, CB, WR and we have 2 picks where we might be able to expect help this year, so at least 2 are going to be FA signings if we want some re-assurance they'll be filled.

QB and CB are the most expensive in FA cause there just isn't much there (flynn, grimes, rogers and that's almost it). I wouldn't mind signing any of those guys and/or a WR and/or grubbs... that's 0-4, but I'd say we need at least 2 and our picks to be competitive next year (and no i don't think we should expect to wait 3 more years for the playoffs).

this isn't cerrato handing out stupid contracts to bad players, so let's get over that. haynesworth and archuleta, lloyd, hall, etc were regarded as mistakes WHEN THEY WERE SIGNED. It was bad FO evaluation and the fans don't have any control over that.
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Old 01-03-2012, 12:02 AM   #37
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Re: What is RG3 worth to us?

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Not to be nit-picky, but Houston traded for Schaub, who was a guy who saw lots of playing time over the years, more than Matt Flynn has (not saying Flynns bad). And New Orleans signed a QB who was a starter for years, but suffered a injury. If Brees hadn't been injured, he probably would have been franchised and dealt. Point is that Brees's don't come out in free agency really ever or at all.

And our front office now is getting the hang of what to do FA wise and draft wise. Our old front office, with Vinny and Dan was not at all good with signing free agents. London Fletcher. Thats it. Guys like Haynesworth and Archuletta stick out a whole lot more than a great signing like London does.
They were still free agents...and they had their risks. As I said, I am all about building through the draft, but saying that you are not going to acquire players through free agency b/c of the bonehead moves of Vinny Cerrato is a bit naive. Personally, I want us to acquire our QB of the future through the draft.
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Old 01-03-2012, 12:02 AM   #38
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Re: What is RG3 worth to us?

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1) And they had those bases, because they drafted well for years.
2) If you read my post, I said per season, not in the past 5-10 years.
3) You have too, especially if you hear names of headcase athletes like DeSean Jackson and Vincent Jackson mentioned in other FA posts.
3) whole other regime.

really. so you can keep using that "whole other regime"'s bad FA signings as a damnation on using FA, but their massively bad drafts don't count? that's... umm... convenient. neither one is 100% safe, but this FO has done better on both fronts, so let's not go crazy with all the "FAs suck" stuff.
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Old 01-03-2012, 12:07 AM   #39
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Re: What is RG3 worth to us?

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really. so you can keep using that "whole other regime"'s bad FA signings as a damnation on using FA, but their massively bad drafts don't count? that's... umm... convenient. neither one is 100% safe, but this FO has done better on both fronts, so let's not go crazy with all the "FAs suck" stuff.
I think the only Vinny-like FA failure of this current regime so far has been giving up picks for McNabb. Otherwise, anything else they have done cannot be compared to the turds that Vinny laid on the Skins.
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Old 01-03-2012, 12:45 AM   #40
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Re: What is RG3 worth to us?

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1) And they had those bases, because they drafted well for years.
2) If you read my post, I said per season, not in the past 5-10 years.
3) You have too, especially if you hear names of headcase athletes like DeSean Jackson and Vincent Jackson mentioned in other FA posts.
3) whole other regime.
This was more confusing than your first post, now I really don't know what the hell you're talking about..

Who is saying eschew the draft for free agency? In order to build a strong team we have to master BOTH avenues for acquiring players. So far, Shanahan has missed badly on two players, McNabb and Atogwe. Anyone else? You failed to mention the players we've added via free agency (Cofield, Bowen, Wilson) or via trade (Gaffney, Hightower, Carriker) that haven't been busts at all.

Here's a difficult reality you may need to come to terms with. Some professional athletes are assholes. Sometimes assholes are great players that can help your team win. If you want to root for choir boys then adopt your local Pop Warner team. Give me a talented prick over a polite loser. I'll be the first one posting hooray if we sign Desean Jackson because he represents the type of talent we haven't had on this team in decades. I'm not ignoring his flaws as a leader, just think we have enough character around him to keep him in line.

Since you mentioned whole other regime, then you should ignore the sins of front offices past when discussing the current offseason plan.
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Old 01-03-2012, 01:02 AM   #41
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Re: What is RG3 worth to us?

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pittsburg drafted holmes in the 1st and gave him away for a 5th. how did jeff george work out? bad picks are bad picks whether they're in the draft or FA, so let's be careful about the drafting is the only option routine. detriot? really? the team that went 0-16 and will get bounced from th playoffs in 2 games with about 42 top 5 picks... that's the example? how'd joey harrington work out btw?

the saints built through the draft? you mean like when they signed drew brees as a FA and finally ended about 432 years of losing?

new england signs FAs/trades pretty consistently. moss, dillon, ocho, welker, branch, etc etc.

the other three do draft well and are mainly comprised of picks.

but this last year we signed otagwe, wilson, cofield, bowen to big deals and tons of smaller deals (gaffney etc - FAR more than your 2 FA limit), and guess what? they worked out (otagwe is a meh).

we need 4 players - OL, QB, CB, WR and we have 2 picks where we might be able to expect help this year, so at least 2 are going to be FA signings if we want some re-assurance they'll be filled.

QB and CB are the most expensive in FA cause there just isn't much there (flynn, grimes, rogers and that's almost it). I wouldn't mind signing any of those guys and/or a WR and/or grubbs... that's 0-4, but I'd say we need at least 2 and our picks to be competitive next year (and no i don't think we should expect to wait 3 more years for the playoffs).

this isn't cerrato handing out stupid contracts to bad players, so let's get over that. haynesworth and archuleta, lloyd, hall, etc were regarded as mistakes WHEN THEY WERE SIGNED. It was bad FO evaluation and the fans don't have any control over that.
All these teams build through the draft with all their all pro players. All these teams except for New Orleans and Houston, have drafted their QB's.

I know its an annoying cliche, but it is a QB driven league, and you going to find your franchise QB 95% of the time in the draft.

And you go on about how these teams have gotten free agents that have been good or have been busts; You Clearly Didn't Read my original post. All teams get FA's, at sometime or all the time, but the good teams build through the draft. Steelers build through the draft and their in the playoffs every year. Green Bay;do I need to go on?

This also goes back to winning. We didn't win with the old regime and their FA habits. We currently aren't winning that well with this regime. Sure they are showing promise, but in this league, everyones professional and you are expected to win and improve. (ah ah ahh hold on) Just look at San Fran, they were 5-11 last year now their 13-3. We were 6-10 last year, now we're 5-11. Until we start winning we as a franchise are still going to be viewed as a laughing stock until we change our ways. Yes we can go get SOME free agents; I'm just saying don't get crazy on them. And as for the whole 'oh we got Bowen and wilson and so and so, etc. etc.' we got them; their Solid players at best. Let me be that realistic bubble burster for you. Cofield you could argue isn't suited at the NT spot. Josh Wilson got picked on a lot this year and lost a lot of matchups. OJ wasn't a good signing considering his health and play declined as the season went on.

Did we have bad signings? No, not really. Did we have signings that I am 100% confident in? Some. Is our signings better than Vinny's? We'll see, but so far they appear to be. Did we sign too many FA's? Yes!

It just seems to be the same trend with us; "We need to build through the draft" ;"Oh man I would like so and so and ____ in FA" ; "I love all our FA signings, getting him and him and that guy and him and possibly him could be huge for us this year! If we have a good draft we could definitely have something good." ; "We had a solid draft and some great FA's, now I'm stoked and opportunistic for this season!"; "god, so and so sucks, we need to replace so and so, why did we sign him, we need to replace him. I'm just ready for this season to be over and the draft." Repeat.
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Old 01-03-2012, 01:10 AM   #42
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Re: What is RG3 worth to us?

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really. so you can keep using that "whole other regime"'s bad FA signings as a damnation on using FA, but their massively bad drafts don't count? that's... umm... convenient. neither one is 100% safe, but this FO has done better on both fronts, so let's not go crazy with all the "FAs suck" stuff.
I'm just focused on FA. I didn't trust them with anything; draft or FA. They were a bad regime that has us as a bad laughing stock in the league.

To change our views around the league and to us the fans, we need to draft and draft and draft well like it appears that we've been doing and doing less lets get, lets get, we need, if we just fill in this need with him. Like I said its fine to get a guy or two, but come march (or whenever FA starts) people hear are gonna go from wanting 1-4 guys to wanting 5-10 guys. I'm just saying now keep it at 0-2, because the more we get, the worse it gets. Thats when you get a guy in FA that you had a decent need for (lets say DE for example), then when the draft comes around you pass on a DE who you clearly could have gotten. Then come the season your there with an ok DE while the other DE that you passed on in the draft is have a great year.

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Old 01-03-2012, 01:20 AM   #43
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Re: What is RG3 worth to us?

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I'm just focused on FA. I didn't trust them with anything; draft or FA. They were a bad regime that has us as a bad laughing stock in the league.

To change our views around the league and to us the fans, we need to draft and draft and draft well like it appears that we've been doing and doing less lets get, lets get, we need, if we just fill in this need with him. Like I said its fine to get a guy or two, but come march (or whenever FA starts) people hear are gonna go from wanting 1-4 guys to wanting 5-10 guys. I'm just saying now keep it at 0-3, because the more we get, the worse it gets. Thats when you get a guy in FA that you had a decent need for (lets say DE for example), then when the draft comes around you pass on a DE who you clearly could have gotten. Then come the season your there with an ok DE while the other DE that you passed on in the draft is have a great year.
This all started when you decided to "grill Paintrain" for suggesting adding 3 FAs at key positions. But now you're saying it should be up to 3 FAs. So what's the deal?
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Old 01-03-2012, 01:29 AM   #44
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Re: What is RG3 worth to us?

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This was more confusing than your first post, now I really don't know what the hell you're talking about..

Who is saying eschew the draft for free agency? In order to build a strong team we have to master BOTH avenues for acquiring players. So far, Shanahan has missed badly on two players, McNabb and Atogwe. Anyone else? You failed to mention the players we've added via free agency (Cofield, Bowen, Wilson) or via trade (Gaffney, Hightower, Carriker) that haven't been busts at all.

Here's a difficult reality you may need to come to terms with. Some professional athletes are assholes. Sometimes assholes are great players that can help your team win. If you want to root for choir boys then adopt your local Pop Warner team. Give me a talented prick over a polite loser. I'll be the first one posting hooray if we sign Desean Jackson because he represents the type of talent we haven't had on this team in decades. I'm not ignoring his flaws as a leader, just think we have enough character around him to keep him in line.

Since you mentioned whole other regime, then you should ignore the sins of front offices past when discussing the current offseason plan.
I'm a better talker than typer; I'll have a long thought in my head and then say about 3/4's of it and leave out some key words. Thats just a bad habit I have; My bad.

I love DeSean Jackson; I think he's a great player. Having said that he's also a diva and headcase. He also has character problems. Fat Albert was the same way; very talented, but also a headcase me me me kind of guy. The media just licks their chops when they get headcases like those two to talk about. I completely understand why you want DeSean. If the WR's weren't so good in the draft coming out, and we had a need, then yeah I'd get him, but there are some solid WR's in the draft, And even in FA, Marques Colston would be a better value in terms of production, character, teammate etc. You can win though with headcases just as much as you can win with the nice guys.
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Old 01-03-2012, 01:30 AM   #45
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Re: What is RG3 worth to us?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SmootSmack View Post
This all started when you decided to "grill Paintrain" for suggesting adding 3 FAs at key positions. But now you're saying it should be up to 3 FAs. So what's the deal?
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