How Scouting College Players Has Evolved Under Shanahan

Gmanc711 · 01-30-2012, 03:06 PM

This is why I really hope, even if we have a mediocre year next year, that we do give Shanahan the full five years. I mean if we have 4 wins again, then maybe we need to assess it further, but I think top to bottom the direction of this team is so much better than it was before he got here. It's really crazy to see just how messed up the whole thing was. There are some types of things I dont totally agree with Shanahan on, but I dont think you can dispute that the franchise is not in a much better spot than it was after 2009.

JoeRedskin · 01-30-2012, 03:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

I think they've been doing stuff differently, but we're talking about the same guys here.

Scott Campbell and Morocco Brown are well-respected personnel guys, but they were well-respected personnel guys when Cerrato called the shots. It's the same guys, the same front office. Having a different way of doing things can be refreshing, or it can just be a different means to the same end.

If people are waiting for me to rip Scott Campbell for peeling back the curtain a bit as to how the Redskins run things now as opposed to before, that's just not someplace I'm going to go. The Redskins draft record under Cerrato in the first couple of rounds always suggested our scouts were as thorough as anyone elses.
I don't deny that it's still the case, and I'm glad Rich Campbell was able to give us a little bit of a look at the Redskins front office. But it's the same front office. It really is. It's year, what, six? Seven? Eight? It's clear to me Shanahan has changed a couple things here and there since mid-season when the heat got turned up on him, but the only thing we can do hoping that things are better now is to wait for it and hope. Because things clearly are not changing before the 2012 draft: we're sticking with the current course for one more year.

It's not that I was waiting for you to rip Campbell. I was waiting to hear how Cerrato wasn't really all that bad and that Shanahan is just doing the same thing.

It's the same guys. I am no insider and even I had heard how the Skins scouts were a solid to good group as scouts go. From Campbell's statements, however, it seems to me that the lines of communication are much better between Shanahan and the scouts than it ever was between Cerrato and the scouts. Again, I am just a simple minded fan, but, better communication seems like a good thing.

Schneed10 · 01-30-2012, 03:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

I think they've been doing stuff differently, but we're talking about the same guys here.

Scott Campbell and Morocco Brown are well-respected personnel guys, but they were well-respected personnel guys when Cerrato called the shots. It's the same guys, the same front office. Having a different way of doing things can be refreshing, or it can just be a different means to the same end.

If people are waiting for me to rip Scott Campbell for peeling back the curtain a bit as to how the Redskins run things now as opposed to before, that's just not someplace I'm going to go. The Redskins draft record under Cerrato in the first couple of rounds always suggested our scouts were as thorough as anyone elses.

I don't deny that it's still the case, and I'm glad Rich Campbell was able to give us a little bit of a look at the Redskins front office. But it's the same front office. It really is. It's year, what, six? Seven? Eight? It's clear to me Shanahan has changed a couple things here and there since mid-season when the heat got turned up on him, but the only thing we can do hoping that things are better now is to wait for it and hope. Because things clearly are not changing before the 2012 draft: we're sticking with the current course for one more year.

There is no alternative for the fans to passively hoping that they're getting it right.

I'm sorry Tripp but I have to really rip you for saying it's the same front office, because that makes no sense. Is it the same scouting group, sure. But when people refer to the "front office", they are referring to the person(s) who are ultimately making the player acquisition decisions.

Scouting departments are front office support people, not decision makers. They evaluate the talent. They evaluated it for Cerrato and now the evaluate the talent for Shanahan. But that's a huge delineation.

Shanahan, his son, and Haslett are defining and communicating the type of players they are looking for, while Campbell and his team go find them. In the past, Campbell and his team would go find them, and Vinny would end up picking whoever he thought would work best for Zorn.

But Vinny and Zorn weren't communicating, and it's clear in this article that Campbell was saying he wasn't getting much in the way of direction from the decision makers at the top. So it's no wonder Vinny went with the BPA strategy when he was in charge - the communication was so poor between coach, GM, and scouts that he didn't even adequately grasp what the team needed.

Scouts are only as good as the decision makers they support. You can provide all the quality analysis in the world, but if the decision makers can't communicate well enough to put the analysis to good use, then shitty decisions get made.

I think with the way Shanahan is making better use of Campbell's abilities, it bodes well for improved drafting and team composition going forward.

Mattyk · 01-30-2012, 03:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Schneed10

I'm sorry Tripp but I have to really rip you for saying it's the same front office, because that makes no sense. Is it the same scouting group, sure. But when people refer to the "front office", they are referring to the person(s) who are ultimately making the player acquisition decisions.

Scouting departments are front office support people, not decision makers. They evaluate the talent. They evaluated it for Cerrato and now the evaluate the talent for Shanahan. But that's a huge delineation.

Shanahan, his son, and Haslett are defining and communicating the type of players they are looking for, while Campbell and his team go find them. In the past, Campbell and his team would go find them, and Vinny would end up picking whoever he thought would work best for Zorn.

But Vinny and Zorn weren't communicating, and it's clear in this article that Campbell was saying he wasn't getting much in the way of direction from the decision makers at the top. So it's no wonder Vinny went with the BPA strategy when he was in charge - the communication was so poor between coach, GM, and scouts that he didn't even adequately grasp what the team needed.

Scouts are only as good as the decision makers they support. You can provide all the quality analysis in the world, but if the decision makers can't communicate well enough to put the analysis to good use, then shitty decisions get made.

I think with the way Shanahan is making better use of Campbell's abilities, it bodes well for improved drafting and team composition going forward.

well said

redskins forever · 01-30-2012, 04:12 PM

i just think in my opinion the players selected post cerrotto era are better and better value then while he was there although i give him landry and orakpo. the players selected this year and last gave us phenomenal depth at each position that we drafted at like hulu in the 4th, royster in the 6th, neild in the 7th. its not hard to hit on mid to late 1st round picks just make sure you pick the position that you need not the one you want

GTripp0012 · 01-30-2012, 04:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Schneed10

I'm sorry Tripp but I have to really rip you for saying it's the same front office, because that makes no sense. Is it the same scouting group, sure. But when people refer to the "front office", they are referring to the person(s) who are ultimately making the player acquisition decisions.

Scouting departments are front office support people, not decision makers. They evaluate the talent. They evaluated it for Cerrato and now the evaluate the talent for Shanahan. But that's a huge delineation.

Shanahan, his son, and Haslett are defining and communicating the type of players they are looking for, while Campbell and his team go find them. In the past, Campbell and his team would go find them, and Vinny would end up picking whoever he thought would work best for Zorn.

But Vinny and Zorn weren't communicating, and it's clear in this article that Campbell was saying he wasn't getting much in the way of direction from the decision makers at the top. So it's no wonder Vinny went with the BPA strategy when he was in charge - the communication was so poor between coach, GM, and scouts that he didn't even adequately grasp what the team needed.

Scouts are only as good as the decision makers they support. You can provide all the quality analysis in the world, but if the decision makers can't communicate well enough to put the analysis to good use, then shitty decisions get made.

I think with the way Shanahan is making better use of Campbell's abilities, it bodes well for improved drafting and team composition going forward.

The big issue is, if you have an old 'front office' who lacked basic communication skills and tried to load the team full of talent and just hoped that it all worked out in the end (and blamed others when it didn't), and you have a different front office that communicates what it needs and trains its scouts to find a certain kind of player, and still consistently makes questionable decisions (maybe not so much on the college level), where is the issue? That the team consistently makes questionable hires for its 'front office' or that it's not changing the right pieces.

I'm on board with the idea that things have gotten better in the last two months from where they bottomed out in October, but the positives in the Shanahan front office sure feel a lot like the positives from the Cerrato front office. The biggest issue remains the lack of substantive organizational year-to-year improvement.

IrMitchell · 01-30-2012, 04:52 PM

Terrific read, Shanny is perfect when it comes to off the field. On the field... well, ya..

Schneed10 · 01-30-2012, 05:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

The big issue is, if you have an old 'front office' who lacked basic communication skills and tried to load the team full of talent and just hoped that it all worked out in the end (and blamed others when it didn't), and you have a different front office that communicates what it needs and trains its scouts to find a certain kind of player, and still consistently makes questionable decisions (maybe not so much on the college level), where is the issue? That the team consistently makes questionable hires for its 'front office' or that it's not changing the right pieces.

I'm on board with the idea that things have gotten better in the last two months from where they bottomed out in October, but the positives in the Shanahan front office sure feel a lot like the positives from the Cerrato front office. The biggest issue remains the lack of substantive organizational year-to-year improvement.

Substantive year to year improvement won't be realized when the star LT drafted by Shanahan and the athletic TE replacing the injured star TE are both suspended by the league for smoking pot during a period when they thought they would not be tested. Further, year to year improvement also will not be realized when the dearth of talent left behind by the Cerrato regime is THIS bad.

I won't defend every move Shanahan has made - the McNabb deal was terrible for one and set us back in finding the next quality Redskins QB.

But some turnarounds take more time. I'd think you of all people would espouse a patient approach after the years of turmoil this organization - and we as fans - have endured.

Dirtbag59 · 01-30-2012, 05:12 PM

So if I'm reading this right it was never really that the scouts under Vinny were bad, but rather they were being held back by Vinny's emphasis on certain positions and giving up draft picks way to easily.

Anyway this article pretty much seals it. The front office is dedicated to building through the draft and building a team much like the Steelers and Patriots. I doubt they trade up for a QB come April.

GTripp0012 · 01-30-2012, 05:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Schneed10

Substantive year to year improvement won't be realized when the star LT drafted by Shanahan and the athletic TE replacing the injured star TE are both suspended by the league for smoking pot during a period when they thought they would not be tested. Further, year to year improvement also will not be realized when the dearth of talent left behind by the Cerrato regime is THIS bad.

I won't defend every move Shanahan has made - the McNabb deal was terrible for one and set us back in finding the next quality Redskins QB.

But some turnarounds take more time. I'd think you of all people would espouse a patient approach after the years of turmoil this organization - and we as fans - have endured.

I am young enough to favor a patient approach, but far too old to believe that what I'm seeing on the field is a poor representation of what I can expect to see on the field in the future.

If Shanahan strings back to back top level draft classes together, I think there will start to be some legitimate evidence to support the voices who believe he will get this thing turned around. I don't think anyone things 2012 is a super bowl or bust year.

But when you look back at 2011 and see the average win percentage of the 16 opponents picking in the top ten range between .505 and .531, and then the Redskins sitting at sixth overall at .470, and lost 11 games against that, and finished with the worst point differential by any Redskins team since 2003 despite playing a schedule of losing teams, its just another year of failed expectations on the ledger. More of the same isn't going to right the ship, they need a different approach.

NM Redskin · 01-30-2012, 05:21 PM

Had no idea there are organizations like BLESTO.

SirClintonPortis · 01-30-2012, 05:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dirtbag59

So if I'm reading this right it was never really that the scouts under Vinny were bad, but rather they were being held back by Vinny's emphasis on certain positions and giving up draft picks way to easily.

Anyway this article pretty much seals it. The front office is dedicated to building through the draft and building a team much like the Steelers and Patriots. I doubt they trade up for a QB come April.

Well, given the fact that our woes are moreso due to not having a lot of picks rather than sucking at actual drafting, this should have been obvious years ago.

SmootSmack · 01-30-2012, 05:38 PM

This is my fault. I should have titled this thread "How Organizational Communication Has Improved Under Shanahan and Allen"

mooby · 01-30-2012, 05:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Schneed10

I'm sorry Tripp but I have to really rip you for saying it's the same front office, because that makes no sense. Is it the same scouting group, sure. But when people refer to the "front office", they are referring to the person(s) who are ultimately making the player acquisition decisions.

Scouting departments are front office support people, not decision makers. They evaluate the talent. They evaluated it for Cerrato and now the evaluate the talent for Shanahan. But that's a huge delineation.

Shanahan, his son, and Haslett are defining and communicating the type of players they are looking for, while Campbell and his team go find them. In the past, Campbell and his team would go find them, and Vinny would end up picking whoever he thought would work best for Zorn.

But Vinny and Zorn weren't communicating, and it's clear in this article that Campbell was saying he wasn't getting much in the way of direction from the decision makers at the top. So it's no wonder Vinny went with the BPA strategy when he was in charge - the communication was so poor between coach, GM, and scouts that he didn't even adequately grasp what the team needed.

Scouts are only as good as the decision makers they support. You can provide all the quality analysis in the world, but if the decision makers can't communicate well enough to put the analysis to good use, then shitty decisions get made.

I think with the way Shanahan is making better use of Campbell's abilities, it bodes well for improved drafting and team composition going forward.

I agree with this post. Also one more thing to celebrate about Cerrato's departure.

NC_Skins · 01-30-2012, 06:02 PM

I see Tripp is on his Shanahan hate horse again.

Giddy up!!

01-30-2012, 03:06 PM	#16
Gmanc711 Thank You, Sean. Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Gaithersburg, MD Age: 27 Posts: 7,360	Re: How Scouting College Players Has Evolved Under Shanahan This is why I really hope, even if we have a mediocre year next year, that we do give Shanahan the full five years. I mean if we have 4 wins again, then maybe we need to assess it further, but I think top to bottom the direction of this team is so much better than it was before he got here. It's really crazy to see just how messed up the whole thing was. There are some types of things I dont totally agree with Shanahan on, but I dont think you can dispute that the franchise is not in a much better spot than it was after 2009. __________________ #21

01-30-2012, 04:12 PM	#20
redskins forever Camp Scrub Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 23	Re: How Scouting College Players Has Evolved Under Shanahan i just think in my opinion the players selected post cerrotto era are better and better value then while he was there although i give him landry and orakpo. the players selected this year and last gave us phenomenal depth at each position that we drafted at like hulu in the 4th, royster in the 6th, neild in the 7th. its not hard to hit on mid to late 1st round picks just make sure you pick the position that you need not the one you want

01-30-2012, 04:52 PM	#22
IrMitchell Impact Rookie Join Date: Jan 2010 Posts: 629	Re: How Scouting College Players Has Evolved Under Shanahan Terrific read, Shanny is perfect when it comes to off the field. On the field... well, ya.. __________________ One of Canada's two Redskins fans.

01-30-2012, 05:12 PM	#24
Dirtbag59 Naega jeil jal naga Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Atlanta, Georgia From: Silver Spring, Maryland Age: 27 Posts: 13,952	Re: How Scouting College Players Has Evolved Under Shanahan So if I'm reading this right it was never really that the scouts under Vinny were bad, but rather they were being held back by Vinny's emphasis on certain positions and giving up draft picks way to easily. Anyway this article pretty much seals it. The front office is dedicated to building through the draft and building a team much like the Steelers and Patriots. I doubt they trade up for a QB come April. __________________ Flacco is 1337 Fanclub President Last edited by Dirtbag59; 01-30-2012 at 05:13 PM.

01-30-2012, 05:21 PM	#26
NM Redskin The Starter Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: New Mexico Posts: 1,004	Re: How Scouting College Players Has Evolved Under Shanahan Had no idea there are organizations like BLESTO. __________________ Despite my solid 40 time and great intangibles I went undrafted AGAIN!

01-30-2012, 05:38 PM	#28
SmootSmack Mad Men Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 43,097	Re: How Scouting College Players Has Evolved Under Shanahan This is my fault. I should have titled this thread "How Organizational Communication Has Improved Under Shanahan and Allen" __________________ You're So Vain...You Probably Think This Sig Is About You

01-30-2012, 06:02 PM	#30
NC_Skins Franchise Player Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 8,254	Re: How Scouting College Players Has Evolved Under Shanahan I see Tripp is on his Shanahan hate horse again. Giddy up!! __________________ "So let me get this straight. We have the event of the year on TV with millions watching around the world... and people want a punt, pass, and kick competition to be the halftime entertainment?? Folks, don't quit your day jobs."- Matty

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Switch to Hybrid Mode Switch to Threaded Mode

How Scouting College Players Has Evolved Under Shanahan

NFL Draft Central