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Disgusted with Bonds?

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Old 04-23-2007, 01:38 PM   #46
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Re: Disgusted with Bonds?

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Originally Posted by SmootSmack View Post
I am a 1975'er as well. But I vividly remember Perry being kicked out of a game for doctoring the ball back in 1982. And I've heard and read that he'd been doing that for years.
I guess I was too young to remember that, or other things have pushed it out of my mind. Plus, I was more into football than baseball at that time, and when I was watching baseball, it was only to watch my beloved Sox and Jim Rice.

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Would it bother you if say Aaron Boone said he was using roids, knowing he's nowhere close to any record?
I already addressed this and said yes. It just bothers me a LOT worse when a record is going down because of it. You pointed out a Boone...well there is no doubt in my mind his brother Bret took roids, and that bothers me too.

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Baseball is interesting in that it's so numbers oriented. I mean where was the outcry for all the Carolina Panthers found to have ordered roids and HGH during their super bowl year?
Well, the Panthers aren't going after an exhaulted record RIGHT NOW. I was upset to hear about the Panthers, but we're talking about Bonds right now.
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Old 04-23-2007, 01:40 PM   #47
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Re: Disgusted with Bonds?

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Everybody does it, so it's ok??? Good call

Besides, look a the fine BIG head he got out of the deal.
I heard on a sports talk show the other day that Hank Aaron apparently attends many baseball events, as a guest, for the good of baseball. They added, that if Bad Barry breaks his record, he will NOT be in attendance. "he will be fishing".
I haven't heard that, but I hope it's the truth...good for Aaron...he shouldn't applaud this disgrace.
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Old 04-23-2007, 01:42 PM   #48
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Re: Disgusted with Bonds?

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Exactly the point I was trying to make. The problem is baseball turning a blind eye to the steroid problem until it was too late. Exacerbating the problem, as I said earlier, is the fact that Bonds is generally considered an ass. If he was some fun-loving, jovial guy I'm sure most people would look at this differently.
SO maybe the problem is the guy who makes the steroids...or the guy that sells it...or the cops for allowing it to take place on their streets. It's not the responsibility of the individual for taking it. Blame everyone else, not the person that is ACTUALLY doing it. That makes sense.
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Old 04-23-2007, 01:57 PM   #49
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Re: Disgusted with Bonds?

There seems to be some distinction between what is fair and right and acceptable in our personal lives and the same things in the business community.
In a nutshell........there is no difference. It is the same.
You do your life, as you do your business. Above the boards, or below. It's right or it's wrong.
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Old 04-23-2007, 01:58 PM   #50
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Re: Disgusted with Bonds?

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I would agree with you if "barry and his friends" weren't half of the league's players. Kicking a few cheating people out of any sport helps save the integrity but when the problem is far beyond a few then you are talking about totally destroying the game entirely. I am not excusing anyone's actions. I am simply trying to get you to realize the reality of the situation. There is no way they can simply kick one guy out without confronting the real notion that the problem was considerably widespread and would have to do something similar to all cheaters. Maybe that is the way to go but they need to be ready for some long and lean years in baseball if they start really cleaning the game up that way. I would think they would rather simply let the testing wash those guys out and save the game that way. That solution presents issues like Bonds breaking the record but over all it is better than basically flushing decades records and players stats down the drain and saying to everyone "Our game was a farce for years".
I do think baseball has a better grip on this, and you can tell that they do when players go from being an all star to being a mediocre at best player because the testing is more difficult. I also beleive that Clemens waits to play because he can take roids, get all the strength and then cruise to the end of the season without a worry of testing positive, all the while collecting his 20+ million paycheck. Now, I am not saying it's still not happening. It is...but the ones that are are doing it with designer steroids that they think won't be caught. When Palmiero went down, everyone got scared. Only the ones that NEED it, and NEED it to acheive something still do.

I'm not really saying it's the integrity of the game...it is, but not really...it's the fact that here is a known roid head going after a great man, and a great player that busted his ass to own this record. It's not right that a cheater will pass him.
The integrity of the game has been hurt for a long time, they are on the way back, but they are still WAY FAR OFF. Remember the league allowing interleague play to get fans back? That was a black eye to the integrity of the game too.
Obviously, nothing is going to be done about this, but I hope he gets the little * next to his record.
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Old 04-23-2007, 02:00 PM   #51
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Re: Disgusted with Bonds?

First of all, has he been found guilty? Yes, yes I know "all the evidence" says he's guilty. But has a court of law declared him guilty?

Secondly, as I've said, he wouldn't be my first choice to break the record. I would have loved for Griffey to break it personally. For a while it looked like he might. But what I'm saying is don't single him out when the problem goes way beyond him. I mean if you want to, that's fine. Just not how I choose to roll.
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Old 04-23-2007, 02:30 PM   #52
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Re: Disgusted with Bonds?

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If he had retired after the 1998 season-I think most agree up to that point he was clean right?-do you think he'd have been a Hall of Famer? First ballot?
Likely not 1st ballot. He would have hit 411 homers at that point, been well under .300 for an average (he's .299 right now). He would have likely not been first ballot because the sports writers hate him...don't think that keeps a man out? Talk to Jim Rice. (also short longevity) They have to like you or you are kept off. Sure he would have made the hall, but not a first ballot HOFer. His numbers were too good to ignore at that point.

That being said,
He was a great player before he took the roids...a true 5 tool player, and one of the best all around players to ever play. He tainted his own legacy.
Bonds once argued that steriods can't make a man hit a ball. I have to disagree. From 2000-2004 he batted averaged .341 a season...his career high before steriods? .336. His 2nd career high? .312. He AVERAGED .341 for 5 years. That is a clear indicator that it can help. It helped Bonds by at least .50 points.
He averaged 31.6 homers a season before steroids. 45.4 from 98-04 and 06 and he was injured in 98 and 06 for a massive part of those seasons (05 and 07 only played 29 games total to this point) and he averaged only 135 games per season from 99-06 (not including 05 even though I should, nor am I counting 07). He played in 150 or more games 8 times before steriods...only 1 time since, and he's still putting up massive numbers at such an old age???? So steroids has proven to help a player jump .50+ points in average, and will help them get at least 15 more homers a season. Add those numbers to any of your favorite current players, and I guarentee it makes them an all star if not an MVP. So yes, it can help a players average. It can help all the numbers except play in 150+ games a season consistantly.
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Old 04-23-2007, 02:34 PM   #53
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Re: Disgusted with Bonds?

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I do think baseball has a better grip on this, and you can tell that they do when players go from being an all star to being a mediocre at best player because the testing is more difficult. I also beleive that Clemens waits to play because he can take roids, get all the strength and then cruise to the end of the season without a worry of testing positive, all the while collecting his 20+ million paycheck. Now, I am not saying it's still not happening. It is...but the ones that are are doing it with designer steroids that they think won't be caught. When Palmiero went down, everyone got scared. Only the ones that NEED it, and NEED it to acheive something still do.

I'm not really saying it's the integrity of the game...it is, but not really...it's the fact that here is a known roid head going after a great man, and a great player that busted his ass to own this record. It's not right that a cheater will pass him.
The integrity of the game has been hurt for a long time, they are on the way back, but they are still WAY FAR OFF. Remember the league allowing interleague play to get fans back? That was a black eye to the integrity of the game too.
Obviously, nothing is going to be done about this, but I hope he gets the little * next to his record.
I tend to agree with a lot of what you say here. I don't want Bonds to break the record anymore than you do. I would love for baseball to be able to making sweeping eliminations of records and cheaters but honestly it would kill the game and ultimately I think they can clean it up and get the game back on track but with a few a sacrifices. Crappy sacrifices for sure but ones that will give them a chance to get the game back.

The bigger problem is how did the game get like this? Where the only options going forward both suck? I go back to the way the game is operated at aleague management level and wonder when or if they will ever figuire out it is the root problem behind their struggles.
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Old 04-23-2007, 02:40 PM   #54
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Re: Disgusted with Bonds?

Do you think his average has gone up at all due to the fact that he has fewer at-bats because he's being walked more? So instead of batting .400 (2 hits for every 5 at bats) he's now hitting .500 (2 hits for every 4 at bats with a walk). I suppose you're response is probably going to be he's only walking more because he's hitting more homeruns and he's hitting more home runs because he's juicing.
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Old 04-23-2007, 02:46 PM   #55
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Re: Disgusted with Bonds?

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First of all, has he been found guilty? Yes, yes I know "all the evidence" says he's guilty. But has a court of law declared him guilty?
Technically, no. But why would courts care if Bonds took roids to help his baseball JOB? They care about the bigger guns...like the dealers...like his buddy that is rotting in prison right now. Oddly enough, guys have kept quiet to keep bonds out of prison. I wonder how much Bonds pays them?

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Secondly, as I've said, he wouldn't be my first choice to break the record. I would have loved for Griffey to break it personally. For a while it looked like he might. But what I'm saying is don't single him out when the problem goes way beyond him. I mean if you want to, that's fine. Just not how I choose to roll.
Griffey is too injury prone...but I would love that too. He has always had such a beautiful swing.
I think A-rod will make a solid run at it. Here's a guy that has 476 homers and is only 31. He's averaging 41.7 homers a season right now since becoming a full time player. He's averaging 45.8 homers a season over the past 6 years and he's well on his way to 50 homers this year. All he has to do is hit his career average for 7 more years (including this year) and he breaks the record. That would put him at 37 years old. If he played 10 more years (including 07), all he has to do is hit an average of 28 homers a season. That would mean he would retire at 41. Not unheard of.
If he can keep his last 6 year average up for another 6 years, he will be only 4 homers shy of 755.
Realistically...A-Rod has a great shot at it. I hope it's not in a yankees uni though!
Griffey has 192 homers to go, and he's already 37. Even if he gets with Bonds, and plays til he is 42, he'll have to hit 39 homers a season to make it. Griffey will be lucky to hit 100 more homers for the rest of his career. I don't think he'll more than 50 or 60 from here.
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Old 04-23-2007, 02:49 PM   #56
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Re: Disgusted with Bonds?

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I tend to agree with a lot of what you say here. I don't want Bonds to break the record anymore than you do. I would love for baseball to be able to making sweeping eliminations of records and cheaters but honestly it would kill the game and ultimately I think they can clean it up and get the game back on track but with a few a sacrifices. Crappy sacrifices for sure but ones that will give them a chance to get the game back.

The bigger problem is how did the game get like this? Where the only options going forward both suck? I go back to the way the game is operated at aleague management level and wonder when or if they will ever figuire out it is the root problem behind their struggles.
I think the only way to stop this is not to erase records..but to ban Bonds from baseball barring an investigation...the investigation could take as long as 3 years...oops. That won't take away his numbers, but that will stop him from beating a great man.
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Old 04-23-2007, 02:54 PM   #57
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Re: Disgusted with Bonds?

What do you think of Pete Rose?
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Old 04-23-2007, 02:54 PM   #58
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Re: Disgusted with Bonds?

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Do you think his average has gone up at all due to the fact that he has fewer at-bats because he's being walked more? So instead of batting .400 (2 hits for every 5 at bats) he's now hitting .500 (2 hits for every 4 at bats with a walk). I suppose you're response is probably going to be he's only walking more because he's hitting more homeruns and he's hitting more home runs because he's juicing.

Walking does not help or hurt your average...it will help your OBP. So to answer that question...NO. His average has gone up in part because what used to be a fly ball for an out is now a homer, and partly because his hits are hit with more velocity and baseball being a game of inches, the defenders are not as likely to getting to the ball in time. (ie:reaction time is greatly decreased for defenders.)
So if you're 2 for 4 with 2 walks, you are batting .500. If you're 2 for 4 with 0 walks, you're still batting .500. Walks will not help this. I would actually wager it hurts you because if you are walking that much, you are less likely to get into a routine with the bat, and your swing would suffer. But like I said, walks does not affect your batting average.
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Old 04-23-2007, 03:00 PM   #59
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Re: Disgusted with Bonds?

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What do you think of Pete Rose?

I'm surprised it took 4 pages before his name was brought up.

I think we need to look at Rose as cheater and he's not in, so why allow Bonds to get in when he's even worse of a cheater?
Rose never changed the outcome of a game when he played like Bonds does by juicing, and Rose is banned, but Bonds is glorified????

This could be a long conversation, because I do think he bet on baseball even though he said he didn't. But did he ever manage a game and threw a game for his own financial benefit? I don't think so. Bonds took steroids for his own financial benefit. So comparitively speaking, Rose is an angel compared to Bonds. This also bring up the fact that being a gamblaholic is a disease...but again...could be a VERY long conversation.
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Old 04-23-2007, 03:05 PM   #60
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Re: Disgusted with Bonds?

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What do you think of Pete Rose?
is there a character clause the writers follow when voting? if there is, how is Ty Cobb in? rose belongs in the hall of fame. and the sportswriters should not even have a say. it should be voted on by former players and managers. then stuff like art monk doesn't happen
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