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Old 04-29-2004, 04:55 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Daseal
It would take my about 4 pages worth of essay to explain my stance on the above. It's not lack of love for my country, or the men and women in the service (which I have quite a few family and friends in) but the war is unnecessary. Pat Tillman should have never been killed, because he should have never been there.
obviously Tillman felt he should be there or else he wouldn't have volunteered to go serve his country. this isn't like vietnam where people, mostly kids, were drafted and didn't have a choice. anyone joining the military thinking they'll always be safe obviously don't understand what the job is about.
I do understand the need to have opposing view points expressed, but not to the point where someone is demeaning the choice's a person makes with their life. there was no need to be this direspectful of someone who thought he was doing the right thing to protect the freedoms of people like this putz of a "journalist."
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Old 04-29-2004, 05:20 PM   #17
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I have no problem with free speech because thats what this country is all about and we fight for that. The one thing I totally can not accept is when your start to cross a very thin line. This kid definetly crossed the line. There is a certain way to criticize and there is a stupid way. By calling someone an idiot because they went to protect your freedom is the stupid way.
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Old 04-29-2004, 05:23 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by Daseal
I don't agree with him, but he's entitled to his opinion just like you are. Is Pat Tillman a hero? Maybe. What horribly heroic action did he take? Did he lay down his life for 20 of his other men?
He may not have saved 20 other men, but the fact that he was there and he was in the position to save 20 men while you and I are home sitting on our asses makes him a hero.

And yes, this college punk has the right to print whatever he likes... but he must live with the consequences. I can promise you someone will find him and kick the crap out of him, repeatedly. Whether it's physically, or in a job interview... whatever. People don't forget that kinda stuff.

Last edited by EEich; 04-29-2004 at 08:02 PM.
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Old 04-29-2004, 05:36 PM   #19
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Ok, heres my take....

I agree that maybe Tillman got too much press and was treated differnetly than the other soilders, and on SOME level, I dissagree with it. Not to Tillmans exposure, but the lack of exposure others who die for the country do not get.

To not call this guy a hero, is absolultey ludacris. Not to call anyone over there right now a hero, is absolutley ludacris. I dont really give a crap if a soilder goes over there and dosent fight a single fight , and anothe rgoes and gets in 100 battles. They are both equal heros in my book. The fact of the matter is, they are willing to go over there and put their asses on the line every single day for our country, somthing I'm not willing to do unless I'm forced into it. So for people to do this voluntaraly and be called " Rambo " and " Idiots " really, really pisses me off.

Now, this little SOB might not realize, but people like Tillman are the only reason that he gets to publish his stupid article. They are the people who fight for these rights. That article is nothing more than that, stupid. I dont know what Pat Tillman, or any other soilder did to this kid, but its down right sick that someone could say that stuff.

"He was acting out his macho, patriotic crap and I guess someone with a bigger gun did him in."

I honestly have nothing to say after reading this quote. I really dont.
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Old 04-29-2004, 06:13 PM   #20
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Dawalrus, err, daseal --
"I must say I'm a bit sad that you seem to support this."

Where did I 'seem to support this'?
I was attacking your argument with your own inconsistencies.
I never condoned the instances of violence taken against Muslim-Americans in the days following 911.
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Old 04-29-2004, 06:16 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by offiss
your a FOOL if you think for 1 second Iraq or Afganastan have nothing to do with our freedom, of saftey! Tell me Daseal would you be in favor of bombing afganastan if we uncovered the plot to take down the WTC before it happened? and wiping out bin laden and his ilk before they struck? I doubt it! yet they were no more a threat to us than Iraq was, unless you wan't to count the first time he bombed the WTC
Exactly.
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Old 04-29-2004, 06:20 PM   #22
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Daseal, you really have to stay off politic's until you you learn to think properly, your industrial machine anology is ridiculous, you equate what tillman did to essentially falling off a ladder, you might wan't to think about putting it in these term's, if someone get's killed because he was stuck in an industrial machine as you put it, for no reason other than his own stupidity than no he's not really a hero, although the only reason he might have been in that position is because he had to put his life at risk to care for his family, or as well he could have been killed in a machine saving the life of another co-worker and doing so gave his own life, your a FOOL if you think for 1 second Iraq or Afganastan have nothing to do with our freedom, of saftey! Tell me Daseal would you be in favor of bombing afganastan if we uncovered the plot to take down the WTC before it happened? and wiping out bin laden and his ilk before they struck? I doubt it! yet they were no more a threat to us than Iraq was, unless you wan't to count the first time he bombed the WTC, or when he bombed the USS cole, then a man comes along and throw's away everything to fight for his country, and to put his life on the line to see that american's don't die like they did in the WTC again, and you say the word hero is used losely and he doesn't deserve hero status? I really don't know where your head is at, GREATER LOVE HAS NO MAN THAT HE GIVE UP HIS LIFE FOR HIS FRIEND'S!

AMERICA! LOVE IT, OR GET OUT!!!!!!!!!!!
American, Love it or get out? This statement is the most flawed you overly patriotic people like to overuse. Part of my civil rights include being able to criticize anything I like and have no sort of backlash from it. America right now is one of the most hated countries in the world. You think this is without merit? We're taking over the roll of the world police, and we have no place to force democracy where the people don't want it. It's not our place.

Now, if we love our civil rights so much. How come we go into Iraq and shut down newspapers because they don't make the US out to be some lovely country working for the good of the Iraqi people. I've said in other threads I've talked to multiple marines that think this war is absolutely useless. They have mentioned that Iraq is a lot like the US, not like the media likes to portray it. I haven't seen it for myself, but I know at least 3 people that have spent time over there, and their stories all seem to agree.

I'm in favor of bombing when we have evidence. I'm sorry, but killing a bunch of children on a hunch isn't exactly my idea of a good move. There are other ways to diffuse these terrorist situations. We could start respecting the rest of the world. There's a reason the other major nations in the UN didn't support us. It's because we don't even have a leg to stand on.

You're right. The machine analogy isn't the best. People know that there is a chance that they will be called into duty. However, he was doing his JOB which we can all agree on. From what I know of the Iraqi war (the only first hand accounts I have, I'm assuming Afghanistan is somewhat similar) they sit around and play cards a lot, and don't see a whole lot of action. If the Rangers are involved, it's probably a known hot bed. So he knew what he was getting into. Before you rock me for "not being patriotic" I tell you right now my family comes from a long line of Military people. One grandfather in the Korean War was found with 30 dead Koreans around him in order to save his commander. Another Grandfather heavily decorated for his bombing in WW2, silver star, etc. However, I'm not trying to play favorites through associaition. I am very against this war, and most wars. Unless I am in imminent danger, there's no need. I believe the monroe doctrine was absolutely the best policy the US ever adopted.

We're a strong and powerful nation, in military terms, perhaps the best. We need to sell our military off and help people in other aspects. Not to mention it's costing 40 billion a month along with hundreds of troops. If you see that as worth it, maybe you should look at your politics, buddy.

If someone wanted to do something similar to the WTC, it wouldn't be that hard. As shown people can slip things by Airport security (ie that 18 year old who while demonstrating the problems in the airlines security is now getting sued.) Isn't great. Not to mention another WTC type attack would deystroy our economy. I believe it was the Wall Street Journal that had an article which said if we had another Airplane related terrorist strike 4 major airlines would go out of business within a week. The terrorists know this. They are very smart, not just cave dwelling idiots as commonly thought.

Answer me this. Why was the first thing Bush did was fly Bin laden's family out of the country after 9/11. The Bin laden's know the BUshs. Hell, Bush Sr. used to fund little Usama. But that doesn't matter. "You can be a terrorist, as long as it's for the US then it's OK" -Dead Prez

We used to hire this guy to do awful acts against Russia. But that's ok, right?

Come on, as a country our political vision is skewed and we need to learn how to mind our own business. Pat Tillman, I feel bad for the family, but he isn't any more of a hero than Joe Schmoe who died.
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Old 04-29-2004, 06:39 PM   #23
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"overly patriotic"

You're criticizing us for being overly patriotic, when if we would call you not patriotic enough, you'd be jumping up and down crying foul.
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Old 04-29-2004, 06:44 PM   #24
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Like I said in a private email a couple of weeks ago, daseal, if you want to argue in a non-aggressive manner - in which no personal insults are exchanged - I'll be happy to oblige. If you actually listen to my ideas and FACTS then you may see our situation in a whole new light.

I know the first thing you're going to say is that I don't listen to your ideas. In fact I do; they're just laden with too many fallacies and/or inconsistencies to take to heart.
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Old 04-29-2004, 06:50 PM   #25
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There are never any personal insults hurled. Unless you mean at Bush, which they do in fact matter. Character of a President matters. I listen to your ideas, I don't agree with them, and if you provide me with hard facts, not things that are debatable, then I will.

I would be happy for you to bring the fallacies and inconsistancies to my attention when we're mid debate then. I wouldn't jump down your throat calling foul. Fact of the matter is I'm not patriotic. I think that being overly patriotic causes the downfall of every great nation, which is so true.

PS - Could a mod please more this to the Parking lot? This isn't really football news. At least not anymore.
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Old 04-29-2004, 06:54 PM   #26
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"Pat Tillman, I feel bad for the family, but he isn't any more of a hero than Joe Schmoe who died."

You have to give the man credit for turning down $3.5million so he could go and try and stop the people who are trying to kill YOU. As for being more of a hero than the other Joe Schmoe casualties, I think they're all on the same level. What was originally being discussed here is the college student who was belittling Tillman's courage and bravery, not Tillman's worth as a hero.
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Old 04-29-2004, 07:01 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Daseal
I think that being overly patriotic causes the downfall of every great nation, which is so true.
Ha, 'so true' & 'i think' used in the same sentence about the same thing.

The slide towards liberalism is what causes the downfall of every great nation, unfortunately we are headed in that direction.
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Old 04-29-2004, 07:19 PM   #28
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Daseal:

We have fanatic Christians running the White House?

I hope they aren't overly patriotic as well!



You do realize that you used the same word to describe both those who bombed the WTC and those who are running our country, don't you?

Yes, you do get to criticize anything you like. No, you don't get to do so free of backlash. There are consequences for every position you take, and part of those consequences include granting others the same right to criticize you.

Your "killing a bunch of children on a hunch" does no favors to your credibility as a political commentator. That sort of rhetoric is more likely to evoke images of you foaming at the mouth. Sorry, but it is just difficult to take such gross misrepresentations seriously. I think someone else had it right that you might want to lay off of the political discussions until you've developed the capacity to talk coherently about the issues.

Of course, that's just my opinion. I now await whatever backlash is consequent to it.

--Phin
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Old 04-29-2004, 07:33 PM   #29
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As an Englishman, may I attempt to put some perspective into this?

I have family in America, NY in fact, so please understand me when I say this: 9/11 showed what a true hero is. Someone who attempts to safeguard others without concern for their own well being. I saw the documentary showing firemen going into the WTC before it collapsed. That is heroic.

What Tillman did was noble and worthy of respect, in signing up and wlaking away from the NFL. It showed a man willing to stand up for his principles. But in and of itself that act was not heroic. Had it not been for current political motivations, he may not even have been there. Joining up wsa not heroic, but it was noble. Again, I have respect for the man.

Was his death heroic? From its description, no it wasn't. He died in a firefight. He wasn't the only one. He wasn't saving anyone, at least not directly. He wasn't protecting anyone outside his squad (protecting his squad is his job, not in itself a heroic act).

So was he a hero? Well therein lies the rub. His acts individually were not heroic. Together, I'd still refer to them as noble, and certainly brave. But he was no more a hero than any other soldier that died in warfare. Maybe you think every soldier is a hero? I don't deny your right to think that. However, I think in this case, because of his NFL background, he got more publicity than 99% of the other casualties of Iraq and Afghanistan. The press made him a hero, not his actions. If he had never been a football player, we wouldn't have heard of him, let alone be having this "discussion".

I have respect for every soldier in every army, as they (for the most part) volunteer to put their lives at risk for their country. It doesn't make them heroes, and IMHO Pat Tillman isn't one either, just a very brave man. No more or less brave than any other soldier, policemen or fireman.

The original article I disagree with in principal, though not without thought for the misguided intent behind it. Even if he is wrong (and he is) he had the guts to write what he thought - published and was damned. As C said, the guy belittled the mans bravery and that was wrong, not his right to say it.

Final thought - If we make everyone a hero, then we may lose sight of the true heroes.

Oh and Dasel is right - move this thread out of here!
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Old 04-29-2004, 07:37 PM   #30
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Very eloquent, JoeRedskin, I fully agree.
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