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Old 04-29-2004, 08:33 PM   #31
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As an Englishman, may I attempt to put some perspective into this?

I have family in America, NY in fact, so please understand me when I say this: 9/11 showed what a true hero is. Someone who attempts to safeguard others without concern for their own well being. I saw the documentary showing firemen going into the WTC before it collapsed. That is heroic.

What Tillman did was noble and worthy of respect, in signing up and wlaking away from the NFL. It showed a man willing to stand up for his principles. But in and of itself that act was not heroic. Had it not been for current political motivations, he may not even have been there. Joining up wsa not heroic, but it was noble. Again, I have respect for the man.

Was his death heroic? From its description, no it wasn't. He died in a firefight. He wasn't the only one. He wasn't saving anyone, at least not directly. He wasn't protecting anyone outside his squad (protecting his squad is his job, not in itself a heroic act).

So was he a hero? Well therein lies the rub. His acts individually were not heroic. Together, I'd still refer to them as noble, and certainly brave. But he was no more a hero than any other soldier that died in warfare. Maybe you think every soldier is a hero? I don't deny your right to think that. However, I think in this case, because of his NFL background, he got more publicity than 99% of the other casualties of Iraq and Afghanistan. The press made him a hero, not his actions. If he had never been a football player, we wouldn't have heard of him, let alone be having this "discussion".

I have respect for every soldier in every army, as they (for the most part) volunteer to put their lives at risk for their country. It doesn't make them heroes, and IMHO Pat Tillman isn't one either, just a very brave man. No more or less brave than any other soldier, policemen or fireman.

The original article I disagree with in principal, though not without thought for the misguided intent behind it. Even if he is wrong (and he is) he had the guts to write what he thought - published and was damned. As C said, the guy belittled the mans bravery and that was wrong, not his right to say it.

Final thought - If we make everyone a hero, then we may lose sight of the true heroes.

Oh and Dasel is right - move this thread out of here!
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Old 04-29-2004, 08:35 PM   #32
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American, Love it or get out? This statement is the most flawed you overly patriotic people like to overuse. Part of my civil rights include being able to criticize anything I like and have no sort of backlash from it. America right now is one of the most hated countries in the world. You think this is without merit? We're taking over the roll of the world police, and we have no place to force democracy where the people don't want it. It's not our place.

Now, if we love our civil rights so much. How come we go into Iraq and shut down newspapers because they don't make the US out to be some lovely country working for the good of the Iraqi people. I've said in other threads I've talked to multiple marines that think this war is absolutely useless. They have mentioned that Iraq is a lot like the US, not like the media likes to portray it. I haven't seen it for myself, but I know at least 3 people that have spent time over there, and their stories all seem to agree.

I'm in favor of bombing when we have evidence. I'm sorry, but killing a bunch of children on a hunch isn't exactly my idea of a good move. There are other ways to diffuse these terrorist situations. We could start respecting the rest of the world. There's a reason the other major nations in the UN didn't support us. It's because we don't even have a leg to stand on.

You're right. The machine analogy isn't the best. People know that there is a chance that they will be called into duty. However, he was doing his JOB which we can all agree on. From what I know of the Iraqi war (the only first hand accounts I have, I'm assuming Afghanistan is somewhat similar) they sit around and play cards a lot, and don't see a whole lot of action. If the Rangers are involved, it's probably a known hot bed. So he knew what he was getting into. Before you rock me for "not being patriotic" I tell you right now my family comes from a long line of Military people. One grandfather in the Korean War was found with 30 dead Koreans around him in order to save his commander. Another Grandfather heavily decorated for his bombing in WW2, silver star, etc. However, I'm not trying to play favorites through associaition. I am very against this war, and most wars. Unless I am in imminent danger, there's no need. I believe the monroe doctrine was absolutely the best policy the US ever adopted.

We're a strong and powerful nation, in military terms, perhaps the best. We need to sell our military off and help people in other aspects. Not to mention it's costing 40 billion a month along with hundreds of troops. If you see that as worth it, maybe you should look at your politics, buddy.

If someone wanted to do something similar to the WTC, it wouldn't be that hard. As shown people can slip things by Airport security (ie that 18 year old who while demonstrating the problems in the airlines security is now getting sued.) Isn't great. Not to mention another WTC type attack would deystroy our economy. I believe it was the Wall Street Journal that had an article which said if we had another Airplane related terrorist strike 4 major airlines would go out of business within a week. The terrorists know this. They are very smart, not just cave dwelling idiots as commonly thought.

Answer me this. Why was the first thing Bush did was fly Bin laden's family out of the country after 9/11. The Bin laden's know the BUshs. Hell, Bush Sr. used to fund little Usama. But that doesn't matter. "You can be a terrorist, as long as it's for the US then it's OK" -Dead Prez

We used to hire this guy to do awful acts against Russia. But that's ok, right?

Come on, as a country our political vision is skewed and we need to learn how to mind our own business. Pat Tillman, I feel bad for the family, but he isn't any more of a hero than Joe Schmoe who died.
it's only skewed by liberal thinking that want's to excuse the good we do for the world and the lives we sacrifice so that million's of other's may live a free life, and have an opportunity of religous freedom, not to come under the hand of a dictator, who executes anyone who has anything to say other than the party line, It's to bad you can't see that we are the police of the world, being an american doesn't just mean taking care of american's, it mean's looking out in the world and doing our best to see that other's may some day have the same opportunities as we. Are we perfect? no. but we have a history of trying to do the right thing, and trying to correct the thing's we do wrong, and using the god givin abundance we have in this country for the good of all man kind, maybe you believe men like sadam, and bin laden, as well as castro, and on and on are fine, and all is well with men like this, and nothing should ever be done no matter how many attrocities they committ, and how many they will committ if left alone, so long as it's not an american that is slaughtered you are fine with that, a guy like you will never understand the mind set of people like this until they manage to set off some kind of nucleur device in 1 of our major cities, then all we will here out of someone like you, is why didn't the bush administration do something, and they had to know about this plot, when not only does the current administration have to deal with people who if they had thier wish would destroy us in a heartbeat, but they have to first fight people like yourself trying to protect these mad men. As for the UN it wouldn't exist if it wasen't for all the money we pump into it trying to keep some kind of communication open for world peace, and I am sorry they didn't approve our war against afgan. after they took down the WTC, and I was so heartbroken about all those innocent people jumping around in the street's applauding bin laden, who may have been caught in the line of fire, but I ask you who is worse the US for doing everything we can to avoid civilian casualties, [including jepordizing the lives of our own soldier's] to secure peace, not just for us but for the world as well, or these coward's who are such humanitierin's that they use woman and children as shield's to hide behind and act like warrior's? YEA, THERE JUST LIKE AMERICAN'S!

Are you aware that bin laden's own family excommunicated him from saudi arabia a year's ago? Why? because his own family knew he was a nut job, how do you think he wound up in afgan. to begin with?
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Old 04-29-2004, 08:37 PM   #33
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Very eloquent, JoeRedskin, I fully agree.
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Old 04-29-2004, 08:46 PM   #34
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I wonder if the newspaper in which the article was printed was a school sanctioned one. The school that I attend (http://cs.gmu.edu) has one sanctioned newspaper and another rogue paper, so aptly named "Expulsion", which expresses the radical ultra-liberal viewpoint. The Expulsion prints garbage like this all the time, but nobody really cares because they know the kind of crap it puts out all the time.

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Old 04-29-2004, 09:21 PM   #35
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Ok, let me state something first and foremost that people seem to be missing. I support our soldiers fully, however I don't think they should be put into the face of danger unless necessary. Which I don't feel dictators like Saddam, who I feel, don't pose an imminent threat. I am much more fearful of Kim Jong Il than I was of Saddam. Kim Jong Il we KNOW has a stockpile of nuclear weapons, hates the United States, but yet we don't touch him (oddly enough, Kim Jong Il has the largest Pornography collection of any single person, most are American films). I also said I don't agree with the reasoning behind the guy who wrote the articles basis. I think he's way off with the Rambo analogies, etc.

I just don't see Pat Tillman as a "hero." He was doing his job. He did a fine job, but we have to try to get over his fascination of him as a hero. He's a great roll model, and he's definitly someone that we can look up to. He followed his instinct and did what he thought was right, and I salute him for that.

Offiss, you're completely correct. Our country has an abundance. Now, just think what we could do if we spent that 40 mil a month on food, medicine, and water instead of bombs. I'm all for defending our freedom, but we're not doing that in Iraq. Afghanistan is a totally different scenario, and we should be patroling just because of all the evidence alone we could gather. Offiss, I think it's pretty obvious that the Iraqi people aren't overly thrilled about our forced democracy. Most of them are following one of a certain sect of priests. Why won't the US let the Iraqi people have the type of government they like. I liked the analogy Jon Stewart from the Daily Show used. He said (I'm paraphrasing, can't remember the exact quote) "The way we're trying to give Iraqi's freedom is similar to if after the revolution the French hung around, wrote our constitution for us, made us follow it, then left. We wouldn't have near the amount of nationalism that we do now." This makes a lot of sense to me. I mean, the "governing council" we've put in around Iraq are people that were Iraqi exiles in Brittain. The Iraqi's don't even feel of those people as their countrymen. They're American puppets. Also, I did refer to the fanatics in both Al-Quada and the White house together. I said they are both fanatics, although in different ways. The Koran says: "Has thou seen one who relies in religion that is one who is rough truly often." Considering instead of asking his father, a real war veteran, Bush prays. That's like getting in a car, hitting the accelerator, and praying it gets to your destination, it requires guidance, and no matter how much praying you do it is destined to fail without your willpower.

As a country we've been fucking the Muslim countries for a long time. Maybe we should help them instead of constantly hurt them and we wouldn't have problems.

Either way. This is no longer the Pat Tillman discussion. So once it is moved to the parking lot, I will respond again. Until then I'm not saying anything else (which who knows, Mods might never move it now.) For those of you saying I'm not fit to discuss politics, I'm tossing out facts about Bin Laden's family, our previous involvement with him, and other such things that you won't touch, but say I don't have a leg to stand on. You're entitled to your opinion, but counter those facts, please.

My opinions offer differ from other people, but I also try to see things from multiple angles. Let's get back to Redskins chat in this forum.
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Old 04-29-2004, 10:16 PM   #36
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Thread officially moved away from football. Feel free to continue.
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Old 04-29-2004, 10:27 PM   #37
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Appreciate it, Brud.
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Old 04-29-2004, 10:50 PM   #38
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I think Pat Tillman is a hero more for the way he lived his life than the manner in which he was killed. The bottom line is that he walked away from millions of dollars so that he could do what he really felt called to do. I think we'd all like to think that we're capable of such a thing, but frankly I think 99% of people would take the money. Pat Tillman didn't seem to want the money or fame ... he wanted to be a regular guy, and he was, just like so many others who've been killed in combat.

I hate the war in Iraq for reasons I've stated elsewhere but I have nothing but respect for our soldiers and for people who've made the ultimate sacrifice like Pat Tillman. My anger is reserved for those who put them in harm's way for reasons that I despise. The kid who wrote that article must have some serious issues ... let's not kick his ass though lest we reinforce whatever prejudice he already holds. He has a right to express his opinion, no matter how stupid and pointless it may seem to us.
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Old 04-29-2004, 10:52 PM   #39
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Quote:
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Daseal -
Way to use one stereotype to condemn another:
"Or is it going back to after 9/11 when the rednecks beat up anyone who looked as if they were from the middle east."
No Kidding!!
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Old 04-29-2004, 11:05 PM   #40
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How is that a stereotype? I didn't say all rednecks, I referred to the people who blindly aggressed other human beings as rednecks.
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Old 04-29-2004, 11:21 PM   #41
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How is that a stereotype? I didn't say all rednecks, I referred to the people who blindly aggressed other human beings as rednecks.
Lol. Think about that last sentence.
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Old 04-30-2004, 12:23 AM   #42
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http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=stor...nightline_dc_6

anyone else agree with the Sinclair Broadcasting Group? unfortunately I do see how this program could be used for political purposes and that thought alone makes my stomach turn. to be honest if this is the reason for the list of names being read, i'm kinda suprised it wouldn't be aired on MTV with all of its pro-democratic bs meant to influence dim witted kids before they can build an opinion of their own based on info about both sides. and that's kinda scary thinking about how some kids get the majority of their version of the news from a channel that airs shows like jackass or i want a famous face.

and i ask in all sincerity, does anyone know of any news shows or channels which don't favor either the liberal or conservative side of the news, but rather a combination of the two? I'm personally tired of hearing the news thats one dimensional in its coverage. the closest i know about is the daily show, but i'd rather not hear the news everyday in a comedic form.

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Old 04-30-2004, 03:57 AM   #43
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He apologized

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=1792673
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Old 04-30-2004, 06:09 AM   #44
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Ok, let me state something first and foremost that people seem to be missing. I support our soldiers fully, however I don't think they should be put into the face of danger unless necessary. Which I don't feel dictators like Saddam, who I feel, don't pose an imminent threat. I am much more fearful of Kim Jong Il than I was of Saddam. Kim Jong Il we KNOW has a stockpile of nuclear weapons, hates the United States, but yet we don't touch him (oddly enough, Kim Jong Il has the largest Pornography collection of any single person, most are American films). I also said I don't agree with the reasoning behind the guy who wrote the articles basis. I think he's way off with the Rambo analogies, etc.

I just don't see Pat Tillman as a "hero." He was doing his job. He did a fine job, but we have to try to get over his fascination of him as a hero. He's a great roll model, and he's definitly someone that we can look up to. He followed his instinct and did what he thought was right, and I salute him for that.

Offiss, you're completely correct. Our country has an abundance. Now, just think what we could do if we spent that 40 mil a month on food, medicine, and water instead of bombs. I'm all for defending our freedom, but we're not doing that in Iraq. Afghanistan is a totally different scenario, and we should be patroling just because of all the evidence alone we could gather. Offiss, I think it's pretty obvious that the Iraqi people aren't overly thrilled about our forced democracy. Most of them are following one of a certain sect of priests. Why won't the US let the Iraqi people have the type of government they like. I liked the analogy Jon Stewart from the Daily Show used. He said (I'm paraphrasing, can't remember the exact quote) "The way we're trying to give Iraqi's freedom is similar to if after the revolution the French hung around, wrote our constitution for us, made us follow it, then left. We wouldn't have near the amount of nationalism that we do now." This makes a lot of sense to me. I mean, the "governing council" we've put in around Iraq are people that were Iraqi exiles in Brittain. The Iraqi's don't even feel of those people as their countrymen. They're American puppets. Also, I did refer to the fanatics in both Al-Quada and the White house together. I said they are both fanatics, although in different ways. The Koran says: "Has thou seen one who relies in religion that is one who is rough truly often." Considering instead of asking his father, a real war veteran, Bush prays. That's like getting in a car, hitting the accelerator, and praying it gets to your destination, it requires guidance, and no matter how much praying you do it is destined to fail without your willpower.

As a country we've been fucking the Muslim countries for a long time. Maybe we should help them instead of constantly hurt them and we wouldn't have problems.

Either way. This is no longer the Pat Tillman discussion. So once it is moved to the parking lot, I will respond again. Until then I'm not saying anything else (which who knows, Mods might never move it now.) For those of you saying I'm not fit to discuss politics, I'm tossing out facts about Bin Laden's family, our previous involvement with him, and other such things that you won't touch, but say I don't have a leg to stand on. You're entitled to your opinion, but counter those facts, please.

My opinions offer differ from other people, but I also try to see things from multiple angles. Let's get back to Redskins chat in this forum.
And there it is, your nothing but a muslim sympathiser, as if they have provided any good to this world, they are as barbarick and hostile as any nation in history, if thier not trying to kill jew's or american's thier killing each other, that's all they do blame everyone else for thier condition, and kill anyone who disagree's with thier position, you talk about minding your own buisness, while these people are off anyplace they can forcing people to become muslim's or die, yea I will tell you what would happen with 40 mil. in food, medicine, and water, we then have a much better conditioned enemy with a better ability to recover from combat and fight some more, you obviously do not understand the mind set and the hatred the accompanies that religion, it's to bad no one thought of that idea during world war 2, we could have thrown some groceries at hitler and he would have rolled over and played nice, what where we thinking?

I will tell you why we can't let them have the kind of goverment they want, because it doesn't work! and we can not allow another regime to come to power who will put the US at danger again, further more why should we constantly provide all these billion's you say for good's for these people so they can live in a govt. of thier choosing, how about we show them how to take care of themselves? and it start's with god and democracy, give a man a fish and he eat's for a day, teach him how to fish and he eat's for a life time, there is a reason that the muslim nation is the poorest nation in the world, it's a godless nation, and until they have a change of heart it will alway's be.

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Old 04-30-2004, 07:58 AM   #45
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I'm not a "muslim sympathizer" I'm someone who doesn't believe that we should go to war unless absolutley necessary. I don't care who it is and what religious stance they take. Your view of muslim's is exactly what's wrong with this country. Most Muslim are peace loving people. You think Muhammad Ali was a terrorist? Mushim Mahammad from the Panthers harboring terrorists? No. They are just regular (with gifted physical ability) guys. If you hate Muslim's, might be time to move. It's this countries fastest growing religion. The whole Israel mess is another topic in and of themselves, but do a little research and if say Muslims were keeping you from work every day, while Muslim's got special commuter lanes and didn't have to stop at 15 check points, you'd probably be pissed when you got fired because you never came to work. THere's a reason Israeli special forces have started refusing missions stating they won't kill any more Muslims unless it is a life or death type of threat. I'm not saying just dump food and water on Iraq, I mean EVERYWHERE. Mainly Africa. What do you hate about African's, Offiss. You obviously don't understand the hatered that accompanies ANY organized religion. Most religions are founded by war, and you mighty Christians took part in a sickening holy war, remember the Crusades? Or Killing Indians that wouldn't convert? Organized Religion normally teaches good morals, but that's all it's good for. It's been the same shit since Greek mythology recycled and regurgitated in a slightly different form. (Saints = Greek Gods. They have a god for everything, Christians have a Saint. There are tons of parrallels. Read Age of Reason by Thomas Paine (the reason our country exists is because of him) he'll be happy to show you all the problems with Christianity. Hell, at least two people were dead before they supposedly wrote their books in the bible. That's always been quite a task!

Hitler is a whole other set of rules completely. First of all, had Japan not bombed us like idiots, chances are we wouldn't have gotten involved. At least not for quite some time. We were fairly isolationist and we wouldn't have touched them. Germany wasn't exactly in a sorry economical state. I still think Russia would have eventually won, although it would have taken a lot longer, but with Hitlers medication being what it was, and his knack for strategy seemingly gone, the Nazi's were about finished. Had he not make the few mistakes he made, I think history would have been slightly different. He's the worst creature to ever walk the earth, but he was also an intelligent man who was extremely persuasive. I just don't think he had the amount of men needed to singlehandedly take over Europe. Hitler had food and wanted control, he didn't need food. And also, we did drop food on Germany, but I think it was a bit after WW2. The Berlin Air Drop, or something of the sort. That's when they were hungry because their country was wrecked.

So you're saying we should force people from another country, into a government they don't want, and then tell them to like it. Gee, Wonder why there's anti-American sentiment. Just because they want a religious leader doesn't mean they can't take care of themselves. "It starts with god and democracy." That's awful narrow minded. Our way is right, no other way can work! Our Constitution in and of itself was an experiment with many flaws in it. Not gaping flaws, and it's well written, but there are problems with it. They are not a "godless" nation. They believe in a god, just as you do. They are far from the poorest. They give us oil to run our cars. So unless you want to pay 5 bucks a gallon, you might want to salute the Muslims. Explain this to me. Saudi Arabia harbors more terrorists and almost all of the 9/11 bombers were Saudi. Why don't we go after them? Oh, we get tons of oil, so it's ok!

Offiss, please go educate yourself instead of lumping all Muslim people together as a godless and vicious people. They are as much human as you and I. It's because our country is so intolerent of other religions and cultures that we hate them so.

You think I'm vicious because I'm agnostic? Because I don't believe in your god?
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