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Old 04-29-2004, 07:46 PM   #31
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I wonder if the newspaper in which the article was printed was a school sanctioned one. The school that I attend (http://cs.gmu.edu) has one sanctioned newspaper and another rogue paper, so aptly named "Expulsion", which expresses the radical ultra-liberal viewpoint. The Expulsion prints garbage like this all the time, but nobody really cares because they know the kind of crap it puts out all the time.

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Old 04-29-2004, 08:21 PM   #32
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Ok, let me state something first and foremost that people seem to be missing. I support our soldiers fully, however I don't think they should be put into the face of danger unless necessary. Which I don't feel dictators like Saddam, who I feel, don't pose an imminent threat. I am much more fearful of Kim Jong Il than I was of Saddam. Kim Jong Il we KNOW has a stockpile of nuclear weapons, hates the United States, but yet we don't touch him (oddly enough, Kim Jong Il has the largest Pornography collection of any single person, most are American films). I also said I don't agree with the reasoning behind the guy who wrote the articles basis. I think he's way off with the Rambo analogies, etc.

I just don't see Pat Tillman as a "hero." He was doing his job. He did a fine job, but we have to try to get over his fascination of him as a hero. He's a great roll model, and he's definitly someone that we can look up to. He followed his instinct and did what he thought was right, and I salute him for that.

Offiss, you're completely correct. Our country has an abundance. Now, just think what we could do if we spent that 40 mil a month on food, medicine, and water instead of bombs. I'm all for defending our freedom, but we're not doing that in Iraq. Afghanistan is a totally different scenario, and we should be patroling just because of all the evidence alone we could gather. Offiss, I think it's pretty obvious that the Iraqi people aren't overly thrilled about our forced democracy. Most of them are following one of a certain sect of priests. Why won't the US let the Iraqi people have the type of government they like. I liked the analogy Jon Stewart from the Daily Show used. He said (I'm paraphrasing, can't remember the exact quote) "The way we're trying to give Iraqi's freedom is similar to if after the revolution the French hung around, wrote our constitution for us, made us follow it, then left. We wouldn't have near the amount of nationalism that we do now." This makes a lot of sense to me. I mean, the "governing council" we've put in around Iraq are people that were Iraqi exiles in Brittain. The Iraqi's don't even feel of those people as their countrymen. They're American puppets. Also, I did refer to the fanatics in both Al-Quada and the White house together. I said they are both fanatics, although in different ways. The Koran says: "Has thou seen one who relies in religion that is one who is rough truly often." Considering instead of asking his father, a real war veteran, Bush prays. That's like getting in a car, hitting the accelerator, and praying it gets to your destination, it requires guidance, and no matter how much praying you do it is destined to fail without your willpower.

As a country we've been fucking the Muslim countries for a long time. Maybe we should help them instead of constantly hurt them and we wouldn't have problems.

Either way. This is no longer the Pat Tillman discussion. So once it is moved to the parking lot, I will respond again. Until then I'm not saying anything else (which who knows, Mods might never move it now.) For those of you saying I'm not fit to discuss politics, I'm tossing out facts about Bin Laden's family, our previous involvement with him, and other such things that you won't touch, but say I don't have a leg to stand on. You're entitled to your opinion, but counter those facts, please.

My opinions offer differ from other people, but I also try to see things from multiple angles. Let's get back to Redskins chat in this forum.
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Old 04-29-2004, 09:16 PM   #33
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Thread officially moved away from football. Feel free to continue.
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Old 04-29-2004, 09:27 PM   #34
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Appreciate it, Brud.
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Old 04-29-2004, 09:50 PM   #35
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I think Pat Tillman is a hero more for the way he lived his life than the manner in which he was killed. The bottom line is that he walked away from millions of dollars so that he could do what he really felt called to do. I think we'd all like to think that we're capable of such a thing, but frankly I think 99% of people would take the money. Pat Tillman didn't seem to want the money or fame ... he wanted to be a regular guy, and he was, just like so many others who've been killed in combat.

I hate the war in Iraq for reasons I've stated elsewhere but I have nothing but respect for our soldiers and for people who've made the ultimate sacrifice like Pat Tillman. My anger is reserved for those who put them in harm's way for reasons that I despise. The kid who wrote that article must have some serious issues ... let's not kick his ass though lest we reinforce whatever prejudice he already holds. He has a right to express his opinion, no matter how stupid and pointless it may seem to us.
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Old 04-29-2004, 09:52 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cpayne5
Daseal -
Way to use one stereotype to condemn another:
"Or is it going back to after 9/11 when the rednecks beat up anyone who looked as if they were from the middle east."
No Kidding!!
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Old 04-29-2004, 10:05 PM   #37
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How is that a stereotype? I didn't say all rednecks, I referred to the people who blindly aggressed other human beings as rednecks.
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Old 04-29-2004, 10:21 PM   #38
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Quote:
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How is that a stereotype? I didn't say all rednecks, I referred to the people who blindly aggressed other human beings as rednecks.
Lol. Think about that last sentence.
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Old 04-29-2004, 11:23 PM   #39
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http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=stor...nightline_dc_6

anyone else agree with the Sinclair Broadcasting Group? unfortunately I do see how this program could be used for political purposes and that thought alone makes my stomach turn. to be honest if this is the reason for the list of names being read, i'm kinda suprised it wouldn't be aired on MTV with all of its pro-democratic bs meant to influence dim witted kids before they can build an opinion of their own based on info about both sides. and that's kinda scary thinking about how some kids get the majority of their version of the news from a channel that airs shows like jackass or i want a famous face.

and i ask in all sincerity, does anyone know of any news shows or channels which don't favor either the liberal or conservative side of the news, but rather a combination of the two? I'm personally tired of hearing the news thats one dimensional in its coverage. the closest i know about is the daily show, but i'd rather not hear the news everyday in a comedic form.

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Old 04-30-2004, 02:57 AM   #40
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He apologized

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=1792673
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Old 04-30-2004, 06:58 AM   #41
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I'm not a "muslim sympathizer" I'm someone who doesn't believe that we should go to war unless absolutley necessary. I don't care who it is and what religious stance they take. Your view of muslim's is exactly what's wrong with this country. Most Muslim are peace loving people. You think Muhammad Ali was a terrorist? Mushim Mahammad from the Panthers harboring terrorists? No. They are just regular (with gifted physical ability) guys. If you hate Muslim's, might be time to move. It's this countries fastest growing religion. The whole Israel mess is another topic in and of themselves, but do a little research and if say Muslims were keeping you from work every day, while Muslim's got special commuter lanes and didn't have to stop at 15 check points, you'd probably be pissed when you got fired because you never came to work. THere's a reason Israeli special forces have started refusing missions stating they won't kill any more Muslims unless it is a life or death type of threat. I'm not saying just dump food and water on Iraq, I mean EVERYWHERE. Mainly Africa. What do you hate about African's, Offiss. You obviously don't understand the hatered that accompanies ANY organized religion. Most religions are founded by war, and you mighty Christians took part in a sickening holy war, remember the Crusades? Or Killing Indians that wouldn't convert? Organized Religion normally teaches good morals, but that's all it's good for. It's been the same shit since Greek mythology recycled and regurgitated in a slightly different form. (Saints = Greek Gods. They have a god for everything, Christians have a Saint. There are tons of parrallels. Read Age of Reason by Thomas Paine (the reason our country exists is because of him) he'll be happy to show you all the problems with Christianity. Hell, at least two people were dead before they supposedly wrote their books in the bible. That's always been quite a task!

Hitler is a whole other set of rules completely. First of all, had Japan not bombed us like idiots, chances are we wouldn't have gotten involved. At least not for quite some time. We were fairly isolationist and we wouldn't have touched them. Germany wasn't exactly in a sorry economical state. I still think Russia would have eventually won, although it would have taken a lot longer, but with Hitlers medication being what it was, and his knack for strategy seemingly gone, the Nazi's were about finished. Had he not make the few mistakes he made, I think history would have been slightly different. He's the worst creature to ever walk the earth, but he was also an intelligent man who was extremely persuasive. I just don't think he had the amount of men needed to singlehandedly take over Europe. Hitler had food and wanted control, he didn't need food. And also, we did drop food on Germany, but I think it was a bit after WW2. The Berlin Air Drop, or something of the sort. That's when they were hungry because their country was wrecked.

So you're saying we should force people from another country, into a government they don't want, and then tell them to like it. Gee, Wonder why there's anti-American sentiment. Just because they want a religious leader doesn't mean they can't take care of themselves. "It starts with god and democracy." That's awful narrow minded. Our way is right, no other way can work! Our Constitution in and of itself was an experiment with many flaws in it. Not gaping flaws, and it's well written, but there are problems with it. They are not a "godless" nation. They believe in a god, just as you do. They are far from the poorest. They give us oil to run our cars. So unless you want to pay 5 bucks a gallon, you might want to salute the Muslims. Explain this to me. Saudi Arabia harbors more terrorists and almost all of the 9/11 bombers were Saudi. Why don't we go after them? Oh, we get tons of oil, so it's ok!

Offiss, please go educate yourself instead of lumping all Muslim people together as a godless and vicious people. They are as much human as you and I. It's because our country is so intolerent of other religions and cultures that we hate them so.

You think I'm vicious because I'm agnostic? Because I don't believe in your god?
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Old 04-30-2004, 11:14 AM   #42
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Well Said, JoRedskin!

Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeRedskin
Daseal -

I agree and disagree with you. As to the kid having a right to say what he wants about Tillman. Yup. He does. I don't have to respect it, but he can say it. From what I read of the article, I happen to agree with the president of the college who described the article as "intellectually immature".

As to heroism, you make the mistake of tying heroism to a heroic death. While it is likely true that Tillman died just as many other soldiers have died in the line of duty, it is not the actual events of his death that make him heroic. Rather, it is the choices he made in life and which eventually resulted in his death that made him heroic.

Everyone, whether they do so knowingly or with some alterior motives, who joins the armed forces has made, on some level, certain choices and sacrifices and, accordingly, is in the same way "heroic" as Tillman was. In an extreme way, however, Tillman reflected the choices and sacrifices faced by all who don the uniform of our military and place their lives in our service.

Unlike the vast majority of those who have died, Tilman bypassed a life of ease and false hero-worship given to entertainers. Tillman sacrificed the luxuries given to such individuals and chose to place his life at the disposal of his country in hopes that, by doing so, he would better serve his fellow countrymen/women. By making this choice, Tillman exhibited a selflessness which, if practiced by all of us, would make our country and this world a better place. Further, the he choice made, though easy for Tillman, is incomprehensible to many of us. Can you honestly say you would sacrifice the 3.6 million and fame commensurate with being professional football player in order to serve your country in a life threatening job for low pay and relative anonymity (even if you believed the cause just)? While I would like to honestly answer "Yes". I am not sure I can.

The fact that Tillman could and did answer "yes" to this question and then followed his answer through to it its deadly end is what makes him heroic and his death tragic.
He is a hero because his choices and sacrifices set an ideal which all of us can and should strive to emulate even if we cannot hope to duplicate it.

I am a Veteran, and would be proud to go an serve again along side of anyone like Pat Tillman!
Unfortunately I'm too old, by military standards.
Would I want either my son, or son-in-law to go and serve as a result of 9-11? That would be up to them, but I would support whichever decision they made.
DaSeal disagrees with war, any war.
My contention is we were tossed into this war by an attack here on our own soil, unlike any other we have ever experienced.
In trying to rid the Middle East of the terror that was imposed upon us, we have reaped the casualties of war.
We did not ask to be in this war, but we are going to finish it!
That my friend is American Patriotism, and American Resolve!

I work for the Navy, and support my military every day!
As a Veteran and a Christian, I support my President and his prayerfully made decisions!

But I would fight for Daseal to hold his opinions!

Not all Christians feel we did exactly the right thing in either the Crusades, or in winning the West from the Native Americans.
But I know some Native Americans, and they support the same Ideals that I do, except they are free to worship as they please to their gods.
I know some Muslims, and they are free to worship as they see.

But, again, I would go back into the military today if called!
9-11-01 Will not be forgotten!
We are just not able to get out of Iraq easily, or out of Afghanistan without finishing the job. Part of the casualities of war. It takes a while to come to an end when you had no plan of action before being attacked!
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Old 04-30-2004, 01:33 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Daseal
Offiss, please go educate yourself instead of lumping all Muslim people together as a godless and vicious people. They are as much human as you and I. It's because our country is so intolerent of other religions and cultures that we hate them so.
I have to strongly disagree with what offiss said by it starting with god and democracy, that's not the only way to transform into a strong nation. maybe it is in your mind and that's your perrogative.

as for daseal, aren't u doing what u just critized offiss for doing by lumping all americans into one collective that is intolerent of other religions and cultures? I know I'm not intolerent of where someone wishes to put their faith and where they come from. If anything I'm more intrigued. But yet with muslims i do have to admit I've had stereotypical thoughts since 9-11, but i ask how could any person, not just in this country, not have similar thoughts from time to time. Of course I also wonder about the people(whites, blacks, asians, and hispanics) i see on the street when there is something in the news about a serial killer or a gang-related shooting. In my mind it's self preservation to keep my guard up and to get a good read on anybody I might encounter. I know there will always be fanatics of every religion and non-religions. Sometimes people misconstrew(sp?) the messages and warp them either to cleanse themselves of any guilt from something they have done or will do or they warp the messages to misguide others who r easily swayed.


In my opinion you(daseal) and offiss are the polar opposites on this topic, but I think(and hope) the majority of people are a mixture and balance of the two. and if the people of this country and/or world with either extremist viewpoint become the majority, then god, or whomever you believe in, help us.

Last edited by skinsfanthru&thru; 04-30-2004 at 01:44 PM.
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Old 04-30-2004, 02:06 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by offiss
The thing you have to acknowledge is this, my view point is the one that this country was founded upon, and I think the result's have been unparalled in history, I also will say take a look at the result's of the foundation of the muslim religion, history speak's for itself. I know few these day's agree with what I am saying but I wouldn't be a friend to my fellow man if I hid the truth, which is unfortunatlly is becoming more and more less popular, I do support the right for an individual to believe what he want's to believe, but there is a big price to pay for those that choose wrongly!
that's every human beings choice to make for themselves. plus by the time anyone truely learns the absolute truth, their dead. all i can do personally is live my life the best i can and I believe that if i do things will be fine when I've shed my mortal shell. I do agree that parts of the muslim belief are rather barbaric and ignorant, like how they treat their women, but I honestly don;t know about the foundations of the muslim faith so therefore I can't fully understand why they do some things the way they do.

plus I'm pretty sure this country was founded in the search of being able to practice any religion you wanted without the persecution of others.

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Old 04-30-2004, 02:44 PM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by offiss
The thing you have to acknowledge is this, my view point is the one that this country was founded upon, and I think the result's have been unparalled in history, I also will say take a look at the result's of the foundation of the muslim religion, history speak's for itself. I know few these day's agree with what I am saying but I wouldn't be a friend to my fellow man if I hid the truth, which is unfortunatlly is becoming more and more less popular, I do support the right for an individual to believe what he want's to believe, but there is a big price to pay for those that choose wrongly!
I was hanging in there (mostly) with you offiss until this one. I am not sure what view point it is that you are saying the country was founded upon but I think you are tying it to christianity. If that is the case, I would have to disagree. While there was a strong belief in the existence of an almighty by the founding fathers, many of them were not christians in the traditional sense or in the manner we understand christians today. Rather, for the most part they were masonic, a sect of christianity which was based on secrecy and mysticism. Further, outside of the anglican southern elites and the northeastern puritans (or puritan-like sects), the majority of the country did not consider themselves "religious" by old-world standards.

The role and force of religion in American culture, history and politics is considerably convoluted. While almost always unanimous in the belief that we are a country "blessed by God", within certain broad parameters, the understanding and description of the God that is blessing us has varied greatly and, quite frankly, from our inception that has not necessarily involved the "Christian" God as defined in modern day society.

Also, to assert that a nation founded upon islam is doomed is, I believe, overly broad. I think (and I may be wrong) that Islam is the majority religion in the world. Further, there are many stable prosperous countries in which islam is the majority religion but not necessarily the "state religion". In countries which adopt islam as the state religion, yes there seems to be a pattern of problems. I would suggest, however, that comes more from the adoption of a "state" religion rather than from the religion chosen. (By the way, the Roman Empire, the Athenian Empire, the Han & Chin dynasties, the Khanate, the Mayan, Incan and Aztec Empires all existed for much longer time period than the US has as of yet and did so without the benefit of christianity).

IF HOWEVER, it is your suggestion that, as part of our country's founding and fundamental to our continued growth, is the recognition a "God" does exist and that we, as his creatures, must acknowledge his existence and seek his way, then yes, I acknowledge that and agree that the many ways people have done that through the history of this country has enhanced its growth and prosperity.


Damn, I am too long winded. I am sure by the time I have posted this, everyone else will have responded and rendered my (once again) brilliant points and theories moot.
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