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Old 06-18-2008, 03:53 PM   #211
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Re: F... gas prices

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Originally Posted by Mattyk72 View Post
Just because recent permits have been increased, and land is available for exploration, does not mean that Oil companies have chosen to drill (in many cases they haven't because the oil reserves aren't large enough for them to cover costs).

In the offshore areas where the reserves are gigantic, the potential for profit is much greater.

Furthermore, any permits for drilling that have been issued within the last few years would not lead to oil production for several more years. This is a ridiculous assessment, it's akin to grading Devin Thomas and Malcolm Kelly solely on their first 8 OTA practices. You have to give the drilling and refining process time (it takes YEARS) before you start seeing an affect on gas prices.
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Old 06-18-2008, 03:53 PM   #212
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Re: F... gas prices

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Point for debate here:
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"Bottom line, you can not drill yourself to lower gas prices," he noted. "The amount of lands that are open, the amount of permits that have been issued have all increased over recent years yet so has the price of gas. There is no correlation between opening up more pristine areas and lowering the price of gas - no correlation whatsoever."
link: VOA News - Bush Calls for End to Ban on Offshore Oil Drilling
In the short-term, that doesn't sound right to me, unless the long-term outlook overwhelms the short-term economics.

I found this quote interesting:
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House Democratic Caucus Chairman Rahm Emmanuel says oil companies already hold leases to 68 million acres of federal land that they are not exploring.
Sounds like the oil companies want to pass the buck onto the American people so that they don't have to do expensive testing to find more oil. I have little sympathy that they have to pump some of their record profits back into their business to find new oil.
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Old 06-18-2008, 04:01 PM   #213
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Re: F... gas prices

Get used to it folks -- even if we drill, oil is only going to rise in price. It's supply and demand -- exactly what our capitalistic system is based of off. We've been stealing oil for years and made no attempts to find a renewable resource to use for energy. We squarely shot ourselves in the foot. India and China won't be looking for any less oil, and I doubt we'll touch the ANWR, which is where most of the domestic oil would be found.

We already drill in Alaska, but it's controlled and not in a national park. I've heard the argument "The people in Alaska are for it." Why wouldn't they be? They already don't pay taxes (the state picks up the tab) plus they get an 'oil check' once a year with the left over profits.
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Old 06-18-2008, 04:02 PM   #214
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Re: F... gas prices

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In the short-term, that doesn't sound right to me, unless the long-term outlook overwhelms the short-term economics.

I found this quote interesting:
Sounds like the oil companies want to pass the buck onto the American people so that they don't have to do expensive testing to find more oil. I have little sympathy that they have to pump some of their record profits back into their business to find new oil.
This makes so little sense, it boggles my mind.

If it costs $1.0 billion to explore, test, and drill in an area considered relatively small by oil exploration standards, only to generate $0.9 billion in expected oil revenues, why the hell would any company want to do that?

They're not passing the buck to anybody. They're not asking that someone else test it and explore it. They're simply passing on the opportunity because the payoff isn't there.

Can you explain how the American people, as a whole, benefit if Exxon loses $100 million of shareholder value on an exploration like this? Americans get a minimal added benefit in the form of increased oil supplies; mostly American shareholders of Exxon experience a $100 million loss in stock value. The loss in stock value negates the gain on oil prices.

People forget that big business comes back to help the general public.
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Old 06-18-2008, 04:03 PM   #215
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Re: F... gas prices

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Its not like this will be our only source of oil for 28 months straight. That wouldn't even be possible. This would just add to oil that we are already producing, and more places that we should start drilling, plus oil that we're already getting from Canada. We can tell Saudi Arabia and Venezuala to go screw themselves and we'd be getting all of our oil from North America.

I agree that we need to develop alternate sources, but it will take time and we need more oil now.
this issue should have been addressed as far back as the 70's. how much more time do they need?the answer is not more oil, its an alternative
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Old 06-18-2008, 04:06 PM   #216
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Re: F... gas prices

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This makes so little sense, it boggles my mind.

If it costs $1.0 billion to explore, test, and drill in an area considered relatively small by oil exploration standards, only to generate $0.9 billion in expected oil revenues, why the hell would any company want to do that?

They're not passing the buck to anybody. They're not asking that someone else test it and explore it. They're simply passing on the opportunity because the payoff isn't there.
this isn't exactly true. those large corporate tax breaks that most of the big players enjoy are mostly for research and development. so mainly, you and i are paying for the drilling
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Old 06-18-2008, 04:06 PM   #217
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Re: F... gas prices

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this issue should have been addressed as far back as the 70's. how much more time do they need?the answer is not more oil, its an alternative
So because we should have addressed DE five years ago in the draft, we shouldn't address it now?

Don't we still have the need?

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Old 06-18-2008, 04:09 PM   #218
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Re: F... gas prices

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this isn't exactly true. those large corporate tax breaks that most of the big players enjoy are mostly for research and development. so mainly, you and i are paying for the drilling
But it's not that simple. First, we get a benefit in the form of lower gas prices to help offset the tax issue. Secondly, if the government reduces expenditures while giving those tax breaks, then the buck isn't passed. I recognize Bush has bloated spending excessively, which I certainly don't condone. But you can't look at a tax break and directly link it to the public "picking up the tab" because it assumes all else remains constant in a vacuum.
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Old 06-18-2008, 04:22 PM   #219
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Re: F... gas prices

You're worried about $100 million in shareholder value measured up against properly incentivizing oil companies to develop alternative fuels? That's disappointing.

What happens after they exhaust this supply? They have to explore the 68 million acres anyway, because they are going to do the same thing they've done for decades past, which is to ignore the fact that oil is not a renewable resource. The oil companies want the quick fix (which I understand). I also don't begrudge them their record profits (I've stated in the past that this is our fault, as consumers, for paying increasing prices instead of demanding they develop alternatives).

However, giving the oil companies another free pass does not help the consumers in the long run. The current path is simply not a sustainable position.



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This makes so little sense, it boggles my mind.

If it costs $1.0 billion to explore, test, and drill in an area considered relatively small by oil exploration standards, only to generate $0.9 billion in expected oil revenues, why the hell would any company want to do that?

They're not passing the buck to anybody. They're not asking that someone else test it and explore it. They're simply passing on the opportunity because the payoff isn't there.

Can you explain how the American people, as a whole, benefit if Exxon loses $100 million of shareholder value on an exploration like this? Americans get a minimal added benefit in the form of increased oil supplies; mostly American shareholders of Exxon experience a $100 million loss in stock value. The loss in stock value negates the gain on oil prices.

People forget that big business comes back to help the general public.
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Old 06-18-2008, 04:23 PM   #220
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Re: F... gas prices

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So because we should have addressed DE five years ago in the draft, we shouldn't address it now?

Don't we still have the need?

all im saying is that this isn't a single party issue. if congress wants to be taken seriously, let them explain what they have been doing the last couple of decades to try and alleviate our dependency on oil. because most of those guys are career politicians
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Old 06-18-2008, 04:24 PM   #221
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Re: F... gas prices

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So because we should have addressed DE five years ago in the draft, we shouldn't address it now?

Don't we still have the need?

Not if it means bringing in Jason Taylor at the expense of a first round pick. Your faith in big oil is frighteningly naive.
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Old 06-18-2008, 04:27 PM   #222
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Re: F... gas prices

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But it's not that simple. First, we get a benefit in the form of lower gas prices to help offset the tax issue. Secondly, if the government reduces expenditures while giving those tax breaks, then the buck isn't passed. I recognize Bush has bloated spending excessively, which I certainly don't condone. But you can't look at a tax break and directly link it to the public "picking up the tab" because it assumes all else remains constant in a vacuum.
oh contraire, mon fraire. those oil companies are specifically told those breaks are under the conditions of re investing in further research and development. and we all know our gov't would never lie to us, would they? or are the lunatics running the asylum again?
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Old 06-18-2008, 04:32 PM   #223
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Re: F... gas prices

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oh contraire, mon fraire. those oil companies are specifically told those breaks are under the conditions of re investing in further research and development. and we all know our gov't would never lie to us, would they? or are the lunatics running the asylum again?
You're missing the point. I'm talking about how the federal government sets their SPENDING budget.
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Old 06-18-2008, 04:35 PM   #224
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Re: F... gas prices

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all im saying is that this isn't a single party issue. if congress wants to be taken seriously, let them explain what they have been doing the last couple of decades to try and alleviate our dependency on oil. because most of those guys are career politicians
I want to be clear on that, too - I put this squarely on the office holders of the past 35 years (1973 should have been a call to action, even though it was an artificial market constraint), which includes a mostly Democrat congress (but not by much) and a pretty even split of Democrat and Republican presidents.
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Old 06-18-2008, 06:12 PM   #225
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Re: F... gas prices

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all im saying is that this isn't a single party issue. if congress wants to be taken seriously, let them explain what they have been doing the last couple of decades to try and alleviate our dependency on oil. because most of those guys are career politicians
Let's not blame this oil crisis on the government. What are they supposed to do, outlaw gasoline or order everyone and every company who owns a car to turn in their keys? As you noted, they've been doling out money for years in the search for alternative fuels. Contrary to popular belief, the government is not and never will be an omniscient and omnipotent body that can solve every problem presented to society. So, I don't think the government should be blasted every time something bad happens.

Moreover, private companies have expended millions upon millions (and perhaps billions) of dollars in the search for cheap, efficient, and green fuels that are compatible with our cars, trucks, etc. To date, no one has discovered a good alternative.

The only thing that is going to force this country to kick its oil addiction is money. As gas becomes more and more expensive, the pressure to find alternative energy sources grows and grows. When someone else develops a cheaper source of energy that is compatible with our engines, they're going to become trillionaires and society will be able to kick gas to the curb.
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