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Smoking Laws in NY and NJ

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Old 04-18-2006, 04:17 PM   #31
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Re: Smoking Laws in NY and NJ

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Originally Posted by Beemnseven
My argument they don't have to "adapt". Non-smokers can leave a smoke-filled restaurant, and go to a non-smoking restaurant.

According to those that favor smoking bans, there would be no restaurants that a smoker could go to.
No one says smokers can't go. Just don't smoke there.
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Old 04-18-2006, 04:18 PM   #32
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Re: Smoking Laws in NY and NJ

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Originally Posted by Beemnseven
According to those that favor smoking bans, there would be no restaurants that a smoker could go to.
That's fine with me.

I was thinking of backing up my car to a bar or restaurant and just piping the exhaust right into it, hey, the non-exhaust enjoying people could just leave, right?

Let me enjoy my exhaust in peace.

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Old 04-18-2006, 04:22 PM   #33
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Re: Smoking Laws in NY and NJ

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Originally Posted by jamf
I hate kissing a smoker...
I ain't gonna lie, I'd hit a smoker
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Old 04-18-2006, 04:31 PM   #34
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Re: Smoking Laws in NY and NJ

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Originally Posted by TAFKAS
No one says smokers can't go. Just don't smoke there.
My statement should have read, "there would be no restaurants a smoker could go to and smoke."

Non-smokers don't have to go to a restaurant that allows smoking.

My position is two-fold: the government should not be able to dictate that a private restauranteur cannot allow smoking, or loud music, or serve fatty foods, when no one is forced to go there. Secondly, one class of citizens should not be able to petition the government to outlaw the actions of another class of citizens when everyone has the choice to disassociate themselves from them or leave the premises.
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Old 04-18-2006, 04:33 PM   #35
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Re: Smoking Laws in NY and NJ

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Originally Posted by Mattyk72
That's fine with me.

I was thinking of backing up my car to a bar or restaurant and just piping the exhaust right into it, hey, the non-exhaust enjoying people could just leave, right?

Let me enjoy my exhaust in peace.

Though your statement was in jest, (or maybe it wasn't) you cannot take that action upon someone else's property without their consent. You can certainly do it if the property belongs to you, though.
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Old 04-18-2006, 04:43 PM   #36
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Re: Smoking Laws in NY and NJ

Quote:
Originally Posted by Beemnseven
My statement should have read, "there would be no restaurants a smoker could go to and smoke."

Non-smokers don't have to go to a restaurant that allows smoking.

My position is two-fold: the government should not be able to dictate that a private restauranteur cannot allow smoking, or loud music, or serve fatty foods, when no one is forced to go there. Secondly, one class of citizens should not be able to petition the government to outlaw the actions of another class of citizens when everyone has the choice to disassociate themselves from them or leave the premises.
Very insightful, i never thought of it that way.
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Old 04-18-2006, 04:48 PM   #37
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Re: Smoking Laws in NY and NJ

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Originally Posted by Beemnseven
Right. You cannot interfere with the rights of someone else. Apart from that, it's a free country -- at least, that's what it's supposedto be.



The short answer to your question is, why give the government one more reason to intrude into the lives of private property owners?

Now, hereís the long answer. As an example to your point Malcom, letís use the Department of Health argument -- What's the difference between the government instituting food safety standards and doing the same with smoking?

The difference is that you can protect yourself from second hand smoke (if you're a non-smoker) and first-hand smoke (if you are a smoker): you can leave the restaurant, or you can quit. However, the same is not true of food-borne illnesses. In the latter case, the government is adhering to its legitimate purpose of protecting the rights of life, liberty and property of individuals through force or fraud. Since no one can protect themselves from the hazards of food-borne illnesses, short of not eating out, the government has the responsibility to guard against a threat that an individual otherwise cannot guard him or herself against.

Bottom line, government has the power and the obligation to protect your rights from others. It doesnít have the power, nor the resources to protect you from yourself.
When it comes to public establishments that conduct business there is no such thing as property rights. Specifically, the welfare and rights of the public trumps property rights and that is in fact constitutional.
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Old 04-18-2006, 05:23 PM   #38
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Re: Smoking Laws in NY and NJ

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Originally Posted by saden1
When it comes to public establishments that conduct business there is no such thing as property rights. Specifically, the welfare and rights of the public trumps property rights and that is in fact constitutional.
For public establishments such as schools, post offices, court buildings -- in most cases, you're correct.

But for private businesses, there most certainly are property rights. The government cannot take over a business, instruct it as to what it can sell, or the fashion in which it sells it. The only exception for government intervention is when someone interferes with individual's rights to life, liberty, or property through force or fraud.

Now, certainly, an argument could be made that this country is gradually getting away from this particular free market philosophy with minimum wage laws, handicap access requirements, and civil rights legislation. Thanks to the Supreme Court's ruling in the Kelo v. New London, Connecticut decision, there's yet another attack on private property rights that clearly marks this country's movement towards the Socialistic philosophy.
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Old 04-18-2006, 06:55 PM   #39
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Re: Smoking Laws in NY and NJ

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Originally Posted by firstdown
Could you please give the part of the constitution which makes this ok.
Some claim the Equal Protection Clause of the 14th Amendment law protects smokers from having to stand outside, but who protects people who want to be inside without being subjected to toxic fumes? Simply put, the 14th Amendment is a double edged sword and the 15th and 19th Amendments allows the public/community to decide what their public health needs are.

p.s. Smoking is bad, not smoking is good! Good wins over evil but you can still do evil outside or from the comfort of your home. May the force be with you.
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Old 04-19-2006, 12:05 AM   #40
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Re: Smoking Laws in NY and NJ

ive been a smoker on and off for many years. im extremely considerate of nonsmokers even in outside settings, out of respect for their choice to not smoke. i dont smoke in my house or around my kids,ever. mostly i smoke during the day in my truck between jobs, and i do enjoy having a smoke if im out having a drink. i know theres alot of a-hole smokers out there who could care less about non smokers, which i think is ignorant. theres a time and place for everything.we shouldnt open the pandoras box of what should be legal/illegal and how the govt. should/shouldnt get involved. bzness owners should be aloud to make that decision. trust me if a bar/rest. owner can make more money being smoke free...well thats a no brainer. drinking,smoking and many other things should be done responsilby and w/ care. anyway, im going outside to burn one while i try the new heiny lite beer.
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Old 04-19-2006, 08:29 AM   #41
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Re: Smoking Laws in NY and NJ

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Originally Posted by SkinEmAll
anyway, im going outside to burn one while i try the new heiny lite beer.
Speaking of that new heineken light, it's pretty damn good!
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Old 04-19-2006, 08:46 AM   #42
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Re: Smoking Laws in NY and NJ

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Originally Posted by SkinEmAll
trust me if a bar/rest. owner can make more money being smoke free...well thats a no brainer.
Exactly, the market should dictate it, not government.
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Old 04-19-2006, 12:32 PM   #43
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Re: Smoking Laws in NY and NJ

This entire argument about "free markets" dictating whether or not someone should allow smoking is off base. Sure, customers can choose to attend the restaurants/bars that suit their needs. But what about the employees? They have to work in that environment. Being subjected to a smoke-filled environment creates a hazardous work condition.

And if you let free markets dictate smoking and non-smoking, all bars are going to choose to allow smoking (as is the case in Pennsylvania and all other states without Tobacco bans). It's a no-brainer, they'll make much more cash by allowing smoking. And that's why there are no smoke-free bars in PA, and hence no smoke-free choices for bartenders and waitresses to work in. The law has to be in place to protect workers' rights, not to mention the health of everyone.
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Old 04-19-2006, 12:35 PM   #44
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Re: Smoking Laws in NY and NJ

And the money lost by the bar and restaurant business due to a smoking ban will be more than offset by savings people will experience on health insurance premiums, Medicare and Medicaid taxes, and healthcare expenses in general over the next 50 years.

The less exposure society has to second hand smoke, the lower the incidence of cancer and other harmful health effects.

Sucks for the bar owners, but in the long run it's going to be better for America's collective pocketbook.
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Old 04-19-2006, 12:55 PM   #45
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Re: Smoking Laws in NY and NJ

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Originally Posted by Schneed10
But what about the employees? They have to work in that environment. Being subjected to a smoke-filled environment creates a hazardous work condition.

And if you let free markets dictate smoking and non-smoking, all bars are going to choose to allow smoking (as is the case in Pennsylvania and all other states without Tobacco bans). It's a no-brainer, they'll make much more cash by allowing smoking. And that's why there are no smoke-free bars in PA, and hence no smoke-free choices for bartenders and waitresses to work in. The law has to be in place to protect workers' rights, not to mention the health of everyone.
No one forces anybody to work in a smoking bar or restaurant. Just like no one is forced to work in a coal mine or join the police or fire departments. I used to work in the restaurant business. There are ALWAYS jobs available for waiters, servers and bartenders. The turnover rate is like nothing you've ever seen in that field. If there are absolutely no restaurants that non-smoking employees can stand, then move to a place where there are non-smoking restaurants. If you canít find any, THEN FIND A NEW LINE OF WORK.
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