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Smoking Laws in NY and NJ

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Old 04-19-2006, 04:43 PM   #61
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Re: Smoking Laws in NY and NJ

Quote:
Originally Posted by Beemnseven
What's easier indeed.

A.) Non-smokers in restaurant that allows smoking are repulsed, inform the manager of their plans, and promptly leave.

B.) Non-smokers petition their representatives in the government to ban smoking in every single restaurant and bar. Nevermind the fact that they aren't forced to eat out every night in order to survive. But because on one particular Saturday night, they can't stand the cigarette smoke in the local pizza joint, so they seek to punish every restaurant or bar owner in the state, (or the nation if they could do it) and make it illegal for everyone else to either light up under the penalty of law.

By the way, Schneed, no one has a "right" to go out to eat and force restaurants to cater to their particular needs, likes or dislikes. If you don't like loud music, you don't go to a rock concert, complain that it's unhealthy for your eardrums and seek out legislation to outlaw loud music.
In regards to the bolded part, why don't non-smokers have the right to lobby for an indoor ban? Where in the constitution does it say that people can't do this?

You act like it's this law that's in place that the government can't tell you what to do with your place of business. That's simply not true. From a legal standpoint the government is well within it's rights to pass laws governing your behavior within your own establishment.

I think it's simply your personal belief that the government should't be telling businesses what to do in this situation, because you can't possibly have any legal ground to stand on. And when there's no legal reason why this ban can't affect private establishments, the rule of the majority comes into play. If there are enough non-smokers who want these places smoke free, and they have the representation in NJ state congress to get that law passed, then they are well within their legal rights to enforce the ban on these places.

Maybe you are arguing your point based on your utopian view of the way the world works: this notion that the government can't tell me what to do with my own damn bar. But dude, I live in the real world, and it doesn't work that way.
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Old 04-19-2006, 04:51 PM   #62
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Re: Smoking Laws in NY and NJ

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Originally Posted by firstdown
We did read your other post and its clear that you want to ban smoking for health reasons(which does not effect you life style). The limit on drinks would so that law goes to far. Read you last paragraph on all the thing YOU could not do. You say how it would impact your life how about the non-drinker who gets kill from a drunk leaving a bar.
Firstdown, you're not hearing me. YES DRINKING AND DRIVING HAS A NEGATIVE IMPACT ON SOCIETY'S HEALTH.

Sorry, I know the caps are annoying, but I've acknowledged your point before and you haven't seemed to understand me. The negative impact I'm talking about is the deaths of drunk drivers themselves AND those they kill. I get your point, it's a similar argument because second hand smoke harms OTHER people, and drinking and driving harms OTHER people.

The difference is an indoor smoking ban allows the smoker to continue smoking without harming the health of others, by simply smoking outside. A ban on alcohol (or limiting to one beer an hour) would keep EVERYONE from getting drunk, even those who are responsible enough to take a cab home.

A ban on smoking indoors allows you to smoke responsibly, keeping others out of harm's way. A ban on drunk driving allows you to drink responsibly by getting drunk and finding another ride home. But a ban on drinking altogether would be going too far, it would punish everyone, even those responsible enough to handle themselves in an intelligent manner.
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Old 04-19-2006, 05:04 PM   #63
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Re: Smoking Laws in NY and NJ

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Originally Posted by firstdown
Yes and when everyone thinks like that we can be mine numb and just do as we are told. I would bet that it was not a majority in NJ that got the law passed it was the people who yelled the most and a liberal state.
There's nothing saying you can't lobby for your point, if you think the goverment shouldn't be able to tell business owners what to do with their private businesses, then by all means lobby for that law to be put in place.

I was just pointing out that such a law is not in place currently. Meaning there's nothing preventing people from launching a campaign to ban smoking.

And some stats for you:
- 20-25% of the nation's population smokes
- 30-35% of people aged 25-35 are smokers, the highest percentage of any age group, and these are the people who attend bars most frequently.

If you owned a bar and 35% of your business was smoking, would you want it banned? No, no owner would. But 65% of that age group are still non-smokers, and would still love to see it banned. And yes Virginia, that is a majority, and that's how the law got put into place.

Stats as seen here:
http://www.health.nsw.gov.au/public-...cts/index.html
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Old 04-19-2006, 05:26 PM   #64
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Re: Smoking Laws in NY and NJ

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Originally Posted by Schneed10
No I wouldn't be in favor of a ban on fatty foods like that. First off, it's not a fair comparison. I'm not advocating a total ban on all smoking. I'm advocating a ban in indoor, public places. You're suggesting that the government ban fatty foods, which is going MUCH further than the indoor smoking ban law does. Smokers can still smoke by stepping outside. What you're suggesting is that the goverment limit fatty foods completely. That's not a fair comparison.

Banning fatty foods would be the same as banning alcohol or banning smoking altogether, in my mind. It's going too far and taking away too much personal freedom.

I agree that banning fatty foods would be a health benefit to society. But if you read my previous posts, you'll see I don't agree with having to give up too much in the way of personal freedoms. An indoor ban on smoking doesn't ask too much of smokers: simply step outside to smoke. It's not saying "you can't smoke at all, harumph harumph harumph." You can smoke, just go outside, and come back when you're done. Quite easy.
Not a fair comparison? What would be the difference between the government acting on behalf of the health of non-smoking patrons of a restaurant by banning smoking, and doing the same by prohibiting that same restaurant from serving unhealthy foods? In both instances, as I've argued, the patron is not forced to be there. He or she can leave. In your world, the government must protect the health of everyone who goes to that restaurant and breathes the air that fills it, but is coincidentally not obliged to do the same for the food that is served there. What gives?

Your idea of personal freedom is an interesting one. Instead of acknowledging my right to start a business, say, a cigar bar that caters to cigar smokers, you're more interested in the right of a non-smoking patron to walk in that cigar bar, be upset with the smoke, and get the government to close down my business. That's kind of absurd, don't you think?
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Old 04-19-2006, 08:31 PM   #65
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Re: Smoking Laws in NY and NJ

Quote:
Originally Posted by Beemnseven
Not a fair comparison? What would be the difference between the government acting on behalf of the health of non-smoking patrons of a restaurant by banning smoking, and doing the same by prohibiting that same restaurant from serving unhealthy foods?
They're very different. One rule denies people the opportunity to eat food anywhere. The other denies people the opportunity to smoke IN CERTAIN PLACES. I don't see what's so hard to understand here. One is an all out ban, the other simply designates areas as off-limits.

If we were banning smoking altogether, I'd be against it. But we're not.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Beemnseven
Your idea of personal freedom is an interesting one. Instead of acknowledging my right to start a business, say, a cigar bar that caters to cigar smokers, you're more interested in the right of a non-smoking patron to walk in that cigar bar, be upset with the smoke, and get the government to close down my business. That's kind of absurd, don't you think?
Cigar bars are an interesting case. That's a place specifically geared towards smokers. There's generally no reason that someone would go there unless they want to smoke, or be in the company of other smokers. So in that case I'd say cigar bars should be exempt from smoking bans. Their business is based around smoking, so they should be left alone.

Regular bars however, exist primarily to give people a place to socialize and have drinks. Smoking is not a necessary part of the business, it's just something that comes along with those who drink. You can eliminate smoking in the bar without putting the bar out of business.

If you disagree with that point, why don't we revisit this issue in 6 months or so. Let's see how many bars in NJ have gone out of business by then. I'm guessing the rate at which bars fail in NJ will not change from pre-ban times. Bars make a killing, they'll get along fine. Smokers will still show up, they'll adapt and smoke outside.
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Old 04-19-2006, 10:13 PM   #66
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Re: Smoking Laws in NY and NJ

My grandfather runs a small, local tavern in NY.

The smoking ban has definitely eaten up a huge chunk of his business.

There are other local bars that allow smoking and are basically giving the state the finger... that's where all his business has gone unfortunately.
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Old 04-20-2006, 12:36 AM   #67
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Wink Re: Smoking Laws in NY and NJ

heres a nice front page story for ya, so the nice respectfull Smoker accepts the loss of his and all bar and rest. owners right to smoke inside. he goes to his favorite drinking spot after stopping off at his favorite sushi bar for a very healthy dinner (no fat/grease). after drinking a couple heiney lights,and stepping Outside for a couple of smokes hes ready to go. so as hes crossing the street to get to his compact hybrid car, hes plowed down by a Non smoker driving a huge polluting suv who left the same bar celebrating the new non smoking law by drinking 6 mick lights,3 shots of yager and 1 shot of goldschlager. in between drinks hes eating 12 hot wings and a plate nachos supreme (xtra sour cream). i guess if the bar was a Smoking bar the non smoker wouldnt have stayed as long and got as hammered and we'd have 1 happy smoker still w/ us.
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Old 04-20-2006, 08:23 AM   #68
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Re: Smoking Laws in NY and NJ

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mattyk72
My grandfather runs a small, local tavern in NY.

The smoking ban has definitely eaten up a huge chunk of his business.

There are other local bars that allow smoking and are basically giving the state the finger... that's where all his business has gone unfortunately.
No doubt it hurts him. But I'd bet my life that if you showed me his books, he's still turning a profit.
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Old 04-20-2006, 08:27 AM   #69
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Re: Smoking Laws in NY and NJ

Quote:
Originally Posted by SkinEmAll
heres a nice front page story for ya, so the nice respectfull Smoker accepts the loss of his and all bar and rest. owners right to smoke inside. he goes to his favorite drinking spot after stopping off at his favorite sushi bar for a very healthy dinner (no fat/grease). after drinking a couple heiney lights,and stepping Outside for a couple of smokes hes ready to go. so as hes crossing the street to get to his compact hybrid car, hes plowed down by a Non smoker driving a huge polluting suv who left the same bar celebrating the new non smoking law by drinking 6 mick lights,3 shots of yager and 1 shot of goldschlager. in between drinks hes eating 12 hot wings and a plate nachos supreme (xtra sour cream). i guess if the bar was a Smoking bar the non smoker wouldnt have stayed as long and got as hammered and we'd have 1 happy smoker still w/ us.
LOL

Why didn't the non-smoker get a cab? In that absolutely ludicrous hypothetical example, it was the drunk driver's choice to get behind the wheel that killed the guy, not the many beers he drank "in celebration" of a smoking ban.

The alcohol is not an excuse. You still have to be responsible for your actions when wasted. It's not the bar's fault that he chose to drive home, it's not the state's fault, it's not Anheuser-Busch's fault, it's HIS fault.
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Old 04-20-2006, 08:39 AM   #70
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Re: Smoking Laws in NY and NJ

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Originally Posted by Schneed10
No doubt it hurts him. But I'd bet my life that if you showed me his books, he's still turning a profit.
If he is it's very minimal. He's been closing early weeknights and not opening on sundays because it's just not worth it.

The smoking bans hurt the small guys more than anyone.
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Old 04-20-2006, 09:31 AM   #71
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Re: Smoking Laws in NY and NJ

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Originally Posted by firstdown
If I knew I was loosing the 65% of the non smokers to a non smoking bar do to the smokers I would become a non smoking bar. Then word would get around and the 65% going to anothr smoking bar may come to my bar.
Why would I go to the non-smoking bar? The chicks who put out the easiest are going to be at the smoking bar.

Seriously, if non-smoking bars and restuarants were good for business, there wouldn't need to be a law.

On top of that, while it goes against the conventional wisdom, the arguement that second hand smoke causes anything more serious than stinky clothes is simply junk science. There causal link between second hand smoke and cancer or any lung disease has not been established nor is it likely to exist. There simply isn't enough concentration of any hazardous substance in even the most smoke filled dive to do any damage.

By way of antedotal evidence....

How many non-smokers spend significant time in heavy smoking environments yet never smoke themselves? Quite a few, right?

Well, far more powerful than the cancer causing agents smoking are the addictive properties of nicotine. If second hand smoke was a problem, just walking into a bar would get people addicted.
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Old 04-20-2006, 09:36 AM   #72
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Re: Smoking Laws in NY and NJ

Nicotine causes addiction, not cancer like the tar from the smoke that is in the air.

But yup, if she smokes, she pokes.
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Old 04-20-2006, 10:23 AM   #73
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Re: Smoking Laws in NY and NJ

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Originally Posted by RiggoRules
On top of that, while it goes against the conventional wisdom, the arguement that second hand smoke causes anything more serious than stinky clothes is simply junk science. There causal link between second hand smoke and cancer or any lung disease has not been established nor is it likely to exist. There simply isn't enough concentration of any hazardous substance in even the most smoke filled dive to do any damage.
Not even anywhere REMOTELY close to the truth.

http://www.cancer.org/docroot/PED/co...Indoor_Air.asp


Quote:
Secondhand smoke can be harmful in many ways. In the United States alone, each year it is responsible for:
  • An estimated 35,000 to 40,000 deaths from heart disease in people who are not current smokers
  • About 3,000 lung cancer deaths in nonsmoking adults
  • Other respiratory problems in nonsmokers, including coughing, phlegm, chest discomfort, and reduced lung function
  • 150,000 to 300,000 lower respiratory tract infections (such as pneumonia and bronchitis) in children younger than 18 months of age, which result in 7,500 to 15,000 hospitalizations
  • Increases in the number and severity of asthma attacks in about 200,000 to 1 million asthmatic children.
Canada agrees:
http://www.bchealthguide.org/healthfiles/hfile30a.stm

Quote:
People who do not smoke, and who are exposed to the toxic chemicals in second-hand smoke on a regular basis, can suffer serious and life-threatening health problems.

In the long term, people exposed to second-hand smoke have a greater risk of suffering from lung cancer, nasal sinus cancer, heart disease, stroke, and breathing problems, including increased coughing, wheezing, pneumonia, bronchitis, and asthma.

People who live with someone who smokes and are exposed to tobacco smoke on a regular basis have a 30 per cent increased risk of developing lung cancer and heart disease.

People who do not smoke will suffer from the effects of breathing second-hand smoke right away. Even as little as 8 to 20 minutes can cause physical reactions linked to heart disease and stroke, such as increased heart rate, less oxygen to the heart, and constricted blood vessels that increases blood pressure and makes the heart work harder.

Pregnant women exposed to second-hand smoke can have a greater risk of miscarriages and babies with low birth weight.
I've got LOTS more where that came from.
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Old 04-20-2006, 10:26 AM   #74
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Re: Smoking Laws in NY and NJ

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiggoRules
On top of that, while it goes against the conventional wisdom, the arguement that second hand smoke causes anything more serious than stinky clothes is simply junk science. There causal link between second hand smoke and cancer or any lung disease has not been established nor is it likely to exist. There simply isn't enough concentration of any hazardous substance in even the most smoke filled dive to do any damage.
Riggo, do you have any science to back up this absurd statement? If you're going to pull things out of your a$$, I hope you have someone backing you up.
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Old 04-20-2006, 10:28 AM   #75
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Re: Smoking Laws in NY and NJ

WebMD:

Quote:
Is Second-Hand Smoke Harmful to a Person with Asthma?

Second-hand smoke is the combination of smoke from a burning cigar or cigarette and smoke exhaled by a smoker.

Inhaling second-hand smoke, also called "passive smoke" or "environmental tobacco smoke," may be even more harmful than actually smoking. That's because the smoke that burns off the end of a cigar or cigarette contains more harmful substances (tar, carbon monoxide, nicotine, and others) than the smoke inhaled by the smoker.

Second-hand smoke is especially harmful to people who already have asthma. When a person with asthma is exposed to second-hand smoke, he or she is more likely to experience the wheezing, coughing and shortness of breath associated with asthma.
http://www.webmd.com/content/article/45/1660_51090.htm
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