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Sell Me A Car-What Should I Buy

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Old 05-10-2006, 09:42 AM   #31
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Re: Sell Me A Car-What Should I Buy

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Originally Posted by PSUSkinsFan21
That's a pretty blanket statement there. You get what you pay for. If you are willing to spend the money on the better built American cars (and by American I'm talking about the big 3), you can certainly get the same value and reliabilty that you find in foreign counterparts. My parents have never purchased a foreign car in their lives and have never gotten less than 10 years out of any of their cars without any major mechanical problems. I have gone from one American car to the next for the last 13 years and have had no major problems. Saying they only last 5 years is something I commonly hear from foreign car buyers who, obviously, wouldn't really know if it was true since they are just buying foreign cars.

Maybe you've had bad luck with American cars? I don't know. But from my perspective I've not had this experience.
So to get an American car that is as good as a Japanese car we should simply just pay more?

Doesn't make a whole lot of economic sense to me.

When American companies can figure out how to make the same class vehicles at the same quality for the same value then people will buy them more. Plain and simple. I own one "American" car and one "foreign" car. My Tahoe is sweet but I gurantee that when the foreign companies start to take seriously making large size SUVs people will stop buying the top American models that currently dominate the market. As far as sedans the foreign cars simply are better vehicles for the price right now. I wish that weren't the case but it is. And it is totaly ridiculous to try and lay a guilt trip on people for buying foreign cars. We're not talking about a little money here. For most people buying a car is a major investment and simply put they should be able to buy exactly what they want and get the best car they can for their money. It isn't their fault that in any given class of cars the best are usally foreign. I don't blame a guy who makes 35,000 a year for buying an Accord rather than a Taurus. He can't afford to go blowing his money on an inferior product.
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Old 05-10-2006, 09:45 AM   #32
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Re: Sell Me A Car-What Should I Buy

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Originally Posted by PSUSkinsFan21
Thanks cpayne. I also echo what you said about Europeans being the least reliable right now. A friend of mine got a BMW 3 Series with AWD about 3 years ago. He had nothing but problems with it. He's now waiting on an Infiniti G35 on order........couldn't wait to get rid of the Bimmer. Then you've got Volkswagon who has consistently been dead last in reliablity studies for years now, but if you ask most people on the street what the least reliable cars are, most of the time they are just going to unwittingly say "American cars". I don't get it.
After the new 7 series BMWs came out a couple years ago, Consumer Reports came out with their reliability ratings and said that the 7Series was equally reliable as an EIGHT year old Lexus LS400. Those 7Series are horribly unreliable. Japanese cars aren't off the hook either. The Nissan Titan and Armada (a Titan SUV, basically) are starting to show their problems as they age.
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Old 05-10-2006, 09:50 AM   #33
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Re: Sell Me A Car-What Should I Buy

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Originally Posted by FRPLG
So to get an American car that is as good as a Japanese car we should simply just pay more?

Doesn't make a whole lot of economic sense to me.

When American companies can figure out how to make the same class vehicles at the same quality for the same value then people will buy them more. Plain and simple. I own one "American" car and one "foreign" car. My Tahoe is sweet but I gurantee that when the foreign companies start to take seriously making large size SUVs people will stop buying the top American models that currently dominate the market. As far as sedans the foreign cars simply are better vehicles for the price right now. I wish that weren't the case but it is. And it is totaly ridiculous to try and lay a guilt trip on people for buying foreign cars. We're not talking about a little money here. For most people buying a car is a major investment and simply put they should be able to buy exactly what they want and get the best car they can for their money. It isn't their fault that in any given class of cars the best are usally foreign. I don't blame a guy who makes 35,000 a year for buying an Accord rather than a Taurus. He can't afford to go blowing his money on an inferior product.
You don't have to pay more to get a reliable Big3 vehicle.

How's the reliability been on your Tahoe so far? My cousin has a 2003 Suburban w/ the 5.3 (same as the Tahoe), and it has been a great vehicle. His girlfriend has put 80k+ miles on it in less than 3 years. Those GenIII motors are excellent. You should be able to easily get 250k out of that motor.

If properly maintained, American cars WILL last 200k+ miles. The key is routine maintenance.
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Old 05-10-2006, 09:58 AM   #34
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Re: Sell Me A Car-What Should I Buy

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Originally Posted by cpayne5
You don't have to pay more to get a reliable Big3 vehicle.

How's the reliability been on your Tahoe so far? My cousin has a 2003 Suburban w/ the 5.3 (same as the Tahoe), and it has been a great vehicle. His girlfriend has put 80k+ miles on it in less than 3 years. Those GenIII motors are excellent. You should be able to easily get 250k out of that motor.

If properly maintained, American cars WILL last 200k+ miles. The key is routine maintenance.
I am not saying that there are not some good American cars. ANd I am nto saying there aren't some bad Foreign cars. But when you look at every class of car (outside of SUVs) basically the foreign cars dominate the lists of the top quality and reliability. I just don't blame someone for buying foreign when the option is usually to buy an inferior American version in the same class or spend a little more for a higher class Amrican car.

I basically encourage people to figure out what they can afford and buy the best car they can get at that price. Foreign or American.
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Old 05-10-2006, 10:05 AM   #35
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Re: Sell Me A Car-What Should I Buy

All cars makes have their problems but American companies seem to take a lot of shortcuts, and their cars are not as gas efficient (last time I shopped for a car) nor do they retain their value. I was a witness to my father's Chrysler Concord falling apart just after 6 years. He was lucky to sell it for a 2 grand.
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Old 05-10-2006, 10:09 AM   #36
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Re: Sell Me A Car-What Should I Buy

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I am not saying that there are not some good American cars. ANd I am nto saying there aren't some bad Foreign cars. But when you look at every class of car (outside of SUVs) basically the foreign cars dominate the lists of the top quality and reliability. I just don't blame someone for buying foreign when the option is usually to buy an inferior American version in the same class or spend a little more for a higher class Amrican car.
Here's an interesting article with some facts that I bet you'll find suprising.
http://www.cnn.com/2006/AUTOS/01/23/...ars/index.html

Here is what sits in my driveway.
1987 Chevy Truck
2001 Honda Civic
2005 Toyota 4Runner
2006 Jeep Wrangler Rubicon
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Old 05-10-2006, 10:12 AM   #37
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Re: Sell Me A Car-What Should I Buy

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Originally Posted by FRPLG
So to get an American car that is as good as a Japanese car we should simply just pay more?
I never said that. What I'm saying is don't buy a $17,000 dodge neon and then bitch about it not lasting as long as a $23,000 camry. Dollar for dollar I disagree with the statement that American cars are somehow inferior. I don't know where everyone gets the impression that foreign cars are so cheap, but they're not. I'll grant you the Japanese have the market on compact cars. It's hard to argue against the Civic in terms of reliability for the price. But I challenge anyone to get more for their money than I got last year when I bought my 2005 Denali.

Another example: in 2001 I bought a Dodge Stratus R/T coupe with a 3.0L V6 (200 HP), 4 disc CD in the dash, premium Infinity sound system, sun roof, leather seats, 8-way power adjustable driver seat, 17" aluminum alloy wheels, 4 wheel anti-lock disc brakes, integrated fog lamps, etc. I got all that in 2001 for $21,000 with 3.9% financing. A week or two ago I just traded it in. 5 years, 46k miles and I NEVER had a single problem with it. Nothing, in 5 years. I changed the breaks once, tires once, and the oil every 7,500 miles (because that's all it called for). What equivalent foreign car could I have gotten in terms of features, reliability, and performance for that kind of money in 2001?

Quote:
When American companies can figure out how to make the same class vehicles at the same quality for the same value then people will buy them more. Plain and simple. I own one "American" car and one "foreign" car. My Tahoe is sweet but I gurantee that when the foreign companies start to take seriously making large size SUVs people will stop buying the top American models that currently dominate the market. As far as sedans the foreign cars simply are better vehicles for the price right now. I wish that weren't the case but it is. And it is totaly ridiculous to try and lay a guilt trip on people for buying foreign cars. We're not talking about a little money here. For most people buying a car is a major investment and simply put they should be able to buy exactly what they want and get the best car they can for their money. It isn't their fault that in any given class of cars the best are usally foreign. I don't blame a guy who makes 35,000 a year for buying an Accord rather than a Taurus. He can't afford to go blowing his money on an inferior product.
As for sedans and coupes, I would argue that an Impala SS, Monte Carlo SS, Dodge Charger, Chrysler 300, Pontiac Grand Prix GXP, Pontiac G6, Pontiac GTO, Chevrolet Corvette, and Cadillac CTS all offer more than their foreign counterparts for less money. But this thread is more about getting Tafkas a new car, so I don't think we really need to get into a debate about specific cars, or this thread will likely turn into a 50 pager in no time.

And for the record, I never layed a guilt trip on anybody. To the extent you think I did, please show me where.
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Old 05-10-2006, 10:13 AM   #38
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Re: Sell Me A Car-What Should I Buy

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Originally Posted by saden1
All cars makes have their problems but American companies seem to take a lot of shortcuts, and their cars are not as gas efficient (last time I shopped for a car) nor do they retain their value. I was a witness to my father's Chrysler Concord falling apart just after 6 years. He was lucky to sell it for a 2 grand.
Actually, gas mileage is very comparable. What cars were you comparing? I'm sure that if two cars had measurable differences, they probably had differences in power and/or weight as well.
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Old 05-10-2006, 10:20 AM   #39
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Re: Sell Me A Car-What Should I Buy

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Originally Posted by cpayne5
Actually, gas mileage is very comparable. What cars were you comparing? I'm sure that if two cars had measurable differences, they probably had differences in power and/or weight as well.
Agreed, and I know that GM for one has been increasingly using their displacement on demand technology on their V8s to increase gas mileage without sacrificing performance.
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Old 05-10-2006, 10:30 AM   #40
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Re: Sell Me A Car-What Should I Buy

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Originally Posted by PSUSkinsFan21
I never said that. What I'm saying is don't buy a $17,000 dodge neon and then bitch about it not lasting as long as a $23,000 camry. Dollar for dollar I disagree with the statement that American cars are somehow inferior. I don't know where everyone gets the impression that foreign cars are so cheap, but they're not. I'll grant you the Japanese have the market on compact cars. It's hard to argue against the Civic in terms of reliability for the price. But I challenge anyone to get more for their money than I got last year when I bought my 2005 Denali.

Another example: in 2001 I bought a Dodge Stratus R/T coupe with a 3.0L V6 (200 HP), 4 disc CD in the dash, premium Infinity sound system, sun roof, leather seats, 8-way power adjustable driver seat, 17" aluminum alloy wheels, 4 wheel anti-lock disc brakes, integrated fog lamps, etc. I got all that in 2001 for $21,000 with 3.9% financing. A week or two ago I just traded it in. 5 years, 46k miles and I NEVER had a single problem with it. Nothing, in 5 years. I changed the breaks once, tires once, and the oil every 7,500 miles (because that's all it called for). What equivalent foreign car could I have gotten in terms of features, reliability, and performance for that kind of money in 2001?



As for sedans and coupes, I would argue that an Impala SS, Monte Carlo SS, Dodge Charger, Chrysler 300, Pontiac Grand Prix GXP, Pontiac G6, Pontiac GTO, Chevrolet Corvette, and Cadillac CTS all offer more than their foreign counterparts for less money. But this thread is more about getting Tafkas a new car, so I don't think we really need to get into a debate about specific cars, or this thread will likely turn into a 50 pager in no time.

And for the record, I never layed a guilt trip on anybody. To the extent you think I did, please show me where.
I like how you are analyzing the costs/benefits of each car, because the price definitely has to enter the equation when you're talking about quality.

But be careful in your comparisons, a Dodge Neon (compact) is not the same class as a Toyota Camry (midsize sedan). If you're looking for the same-class comparison, go with the Neon and the Toyota Corrolla or Honda Civic.

The American models are often cheaper, but the quality isn't as good as the Japanese. I bolded a part of your post because I flat out disagree with it. None of the American cars you mentioned in that bolded section rank very high in terms of quality, and the Japanese makers are ahead according to just about every publication available. That is supported by Consumer Reports, JD Power, Motor Trend, etcetera.

It's a given that Toyota, Honda, and Hyundai are better quality than GM, Chrysler, Ford, and Chevy. But you're right to question whether or not the extra money spent is worth it. That part comes down to individual perception.
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Old 05-10-2006, 10:35 AM   #41
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Re: Sell Me A Car-What Should I Buy

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The Honda CR-V is probably my top choice right now. But I've been hearing good things about the Subaru Forester. I know Consumer Reports gave them both good reviews

Canthetuna, any thoughts on the Toyota SUVs? I know that's your area of expertise.

Believe it or not, the 2006 Toyota Highlander Hybrid was rated highest among SUVs priced above $30,000 by Consumer Reports. I'm looking at a bunch on Yahoo autos right now, and I only see a couple over $30K. They are mostly in the $25-$28K range.
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Old 05-10-2006, 10:36 AM   #42
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Re: Sell Me A Car-What Should I Buy

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I bolded a part of your post because I flat out disagree with it.
Of those cars that you bolded, there are several world class cars in there that are VERY high quality. I think your statement, and post in general, exemplifies the type of attitude that the CNN article above argues is unfounded.
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Old 05-10-2006, 10:59 AM   #43
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Re: Sell Me A Car-What Should I Buy

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Originally Posted by Schneed10
I like how you are analyzing the costs/benefits of each car, because the price definitely has to enter the equation when you're talking about quality.

But be careful in your comparisons, a Dodge Neon (compact) is not the same class as a Toyota Camry (midsize sedan). If you're looking for the same-class comparison, go with the Neon and the Toyota Corrolla or Honda Civic.
But that's exactly my point. Too often foreign car buyers make blanket statements about "American cars" that might be supportable if they cite to cars like the Dodge Neon, Ford Escort, or Chevy Cavalier. I've conceeded that in that segment the Japanese have the edge. Basically I was warning about the same thing you mentioned here too: i.e. let's keep it apples to apples and not make broad generalizations.

Quote:
The American models are often cheaper, but the quality isn't as good as the Japanese. I bolded a part of your post because I flat out disagree with it. None of the American cars you mentioned in that bolded section rank very high in terms of quality, and the Japanese makers are ahead according to just about every publication available. That is supported by Consumer Reports, JD Power, Motor Trend, etcetera.

It's a given that Toyota, Honda, and Hyundai are better quality than GM, Chrysler, Ford, and Chevy. But you're right to question whether or not the extra money spent is worth it. That part comes down to individual perception.
Well, like I said, we could sit here and argue specifics, but I think you are discounting many of the cars I mentioned based on your own biases. The Covette consistently gets rave reviews for being one of the best performance cars in the world for the money. The Cadillac CTS isn't high in quality? I'd take serious issue with that. The Charger has gotten exceptional reviews for its bang-for-the-buck.

Really a lot of this comes down to personal preference. But my personal preference for American cars doesn't have me making broad statements about other foreign cars. I mean, personally, I wouldn't trade you my friend's lexus SUV for my Denali unless he threw in an extra 10 grand. Quality? I've ridden in it, it's an ok car. Overpriced for the money, lacks features, lacks power, and is fairly uninspiring. But again, that's just my preference.

My other friend's BMW 3 series? I dusted it with my old 2001 Stratus RT, and I had less problems with my car in 5 years than he had in 3 with his. Quality? Not from what we saw.

I think that's why cpayne's article was so on point to this discussion. Everyone just assumes that Acura, Honda, BMW and Toyota produce so much better cars than anything GM can put out, but it's just not true. To the extent you can point to lower quality lines like Chevy and Ford, and simply discount Caddillac, Lincoln, and Buick, I could easily point to Mitsubishi, Subaru and Nissan and discount Toyota and Honda. I guess what I'm trying to say is it's not as simple as Japan v. USA. There are way too many variations in "foreign" or even "Japanese" cars to simply say that they are better than "American" cars. You'd never catch me buying a Ford (no offense to anyone else), but you'd also never catch me buying a Mitsubishi.
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Old 05-10-2006, 11:00 AM   #44
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Re: Sell Me A Car-What Should I Buy

no,i dont own a lexus,my daughter does.got it for school when i couldnt talk her into buying american.im proud to say i have never owned anything but american in my lifetime
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Old 05-10-2006, 11:05 AM   #45
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Re: Sell Me A Car-What Should I Buy

I really appreciate the advice you guys are giving me.
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