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Fahrenheit 9/11

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Old 06-25-2004, 06:52 PM   #1
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Thumbs up Fahrenheit 9/11

Just got back and all I have to say is wow, great, great movie.

I don't care if you're republican, democrat, conservative, liberal, whatever, everyone should do themselves a favor and watch this movie.

I've never been at a movie before where the audience applauded at the end, and loudly! Some people even stood and clapped.

This movie will make you laugh and make you want to cry, sometimes both at the same time.

Anybody else see it yet? Your thoughts?
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Old 06-25-2004, 08:53 PM   #2
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It could be as u said a great movie but I have never nor will I ever support anything Michael Moore is involved with. I mean the man makes a living off the misfortunes and hatred of others. I can think of atleast a couple dozen other ways off the top of my head to spend 2 hours of my life w/or w/o spending the 10$ required to see his "movie." I go to movies to escape how crappy and screwed up parts of the world is, not to have one side of a certain story shoved in my face no matter what amount of actual facts go into making said movie. I'm probably in the minority in this way of thinking, but why would I want to go to a movie that's gonna make me hate someone else? whether it's Moore or Bush, people r gonna come out of the movie hating one or the other and that just perpetuates(sp?) the increasing differences and difficulties between right and left wing people. a majority of people with moore's way of thinking r probably gonna see this as the god's honest truth, but everyone knows that the truth often makes a boring story/movie and thus it's spiced up/tweaked a little. if he'd made a movie that wasn't from such a one-sided view of the story, I'd probably have been atleast intrigued about the movie, but it's not and thus it hasn't. but yeah, that's my on the subject.
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Old 06-25-2004, 11:06 PM   #3
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I look at it like this. Most people are going to go into the movie thinking one way, maybe you're liberal minded or maybe your more conservative. Either way, you're most likely going to walk out of the movie still thinking the same way. If you're liberal the movie will only reaffirm your thinking that Bush is an idiot and the U.S. needs to get the hell out of Iraq. If you're conservative, you'll walk away cursing Moore and calling him a liar, or something along those lines.

I think the hope is that the people in the middle, the people who don't vote, who don't "care", will take a side, no matter what side that is and get out and have a voice in November.

I like the fact this movie has stirred up so much controversy. We need more healthy debate in this country, we need more people to stand up and question authority. We need more pissed off voters.
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Old 06-25-2004, 11:08 PM   #4
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skinsfan: you think of Moore constantly published bold faced lies the Bush family wouldn't take him to court for slander in a second? They'd gladly sue him if they had a leg to stand on, unfortunatley, they don't.

Michael Moore is always seen as one sided by those who don't read his books or movies. Is he very opinionated, yes. Do you have to look through a few things, yes. However facts are facts and he uses them to his advantage. In "Stupid White Guys" he goes on for quite some length blasting Clinton and Gore for their mistakes too. He's not a hardcore Liberal, he's just completely anti-bush, which isn't an uncommon sentiment.

I haven't gotten to it yet, but I plan on going this weekend. From what I hear it shows real war footage, the dead children in the orphanages and weddings we bomb. If you don't want to see that, perhaps you shouldn't support doing it.
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Old 06-26-2004, 01:06 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Daseal
skinsfan: you think of Moore constantly published bold faced lies the Bush family wouldn't take him to court for slander in a second? They'd gladly sue him if they had a leg to stand on, unfortunatley, they don't.

Michael Moore is always seen as one sided by those who don't read his books or movies. Is he very opinionated, yes. Do you have to look through a few things, yes. However facts are facts and he uses them to his advantage. In "Stupid White Guys" he goes on for quite some length blasting Clinton and Gore for their mistakes too. He's not a hardcore Liberal, he's just completely anti-bush, which isn't an uncommon sentiment.

I haven't gotten to it yet, but I plan on going this weekend. From what I hear it shows real war footage, the dead children in the orphanages and weddings we bomb. If you don't want to see that, perhaps you shouldn't support doing it.
do u know what would happen if every president sued someone for slander? there'd probably be thousands of people sued each term if not each year. I probably wouldn't worry about sueing either cuz that would mean I'm stooping to their level and giving them the satisfaction that they got to me. it'd also add more hype to something that probably wouldn't be getting anywhere near the same reaction if it wasn't coming out so close to the presidential election.

I said I for one don't know what of all the things moore says r lies or the truth and none of us r ever gonna know every detail. I'm not the biggest Bush suppporter, but in my mind he was the lesser of two evils between him and Gore and now him and Kerry. Gore honest to god scared me with his robotic reactions and he and Clinton's whittling down of the military and our intelligence groups. and I believe if he'd been president during 9/11, we as a nation would have fallen into complete dissiray and as much as some people probably don't like admitting it, Bush provided a reassuring voice to help keep the nation strong. And now all I hear from the news about kerry is him talking about problems he see's with Bush as president, but yet no solutions to fix said problems. He never really seems to take a solid stand on many of the important issues. I would like to hear him talk about programs and steps he'd take to fix some of the things wrong with the country but like I said all I hear him say seems like adult versions of name calling on the playground.

and why would I want to see footage of these bombings? does he have footage of all of the mass graves found in iraq or the torture sessions? and let's not forget that the militants and terrorist groups in Iraq have been using heavily populated areas to hide in as well as using women and children as shields. is there gonna be a movie about that?

I believed in getting saddam out of there and while I'd have prefered it didn't have to come as a result of war, it did so I supported our troops. so I guess we should have let saddam keep killing and supressing his own people and hope that he suddenly comes to his senses.

I don't remember anyone talking about the intelligence russian president putin, who was against the iraq war, said that they'd gotten info that saddam's regime had made plans to attack both civilian and military targets of the US.
http://www.sptimes.ru/archive/times/...ws/n_12787.htm

and now there is Iraqi intelligence from the mid 90's of contact between Saddam and Osama in an attempt to attack the ruling Saudi family. I realize that's almost a decade ago and plots against another country, but there r atleast some ties between the two "men" which a lot of people have strongly argued against. I'm not saying they were co-criminal masterminds/psychopaths, but there r connections people can't deny now if this evidence holds up.

http://www.dailynews.com/Stories/0,1...233943,00.html


hardly anything is cut and dry no matter how much some people on either sides of various topics may wish it to be. I for one hope I stay in the middle like I am now cuz I try to see the strength and weaknesses of both sides of both the problem and the required solution/s. I'm praying for the day that there is a real candidate that isn't set towards one side of the line's mindset. and angry voters with blinders on isn't the answer. intelligent voting is. I 2 like challenging authority to right wrongs and fix problems within the system and hopefully one day there will be someone who is willing to do that from the inside.
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Old 06-26-2004, 06:08 AM   #6
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Don't forget the US mass grave newsweek reported where we ship "prisoner" (mostly locals that haven't done anything wrong) in airtight crates and there are always a few the suffocate each trip.

Also, there were plenty of connections between the Bush's and Osama in the mid 90's. And the US even trained and supplied Osama even earlier than that. As long as he's killing Russians, we're down with terrorists, right?

The reason he'd sue Michael Moore is this is a huge movie, if he could discredit it they would do it in a second.
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Old 06-26-2004, 07:23 AM   #7
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if you want objective reporting here: http://www.thislife.org/ra/266.ram
its an hour long radio program about military contractors in iraq, they talk to real people, they don't make the plot and only fill in the facts that fit their view

the problem with moore is he is horribly one sided, his stance is that you agree with him or you're stupid. His movies do NOT bring debate, they bring fist shaking and name calling, but they tend to be divisive and not much more. Its like taking ann coultier at her word... its a bad idea (she's the ultra right wing nut job chick).

seriously, moore rampages into major corporate offices unannounced demanding to speak to the president/CEO within the next 5 minutes... it looks really nice on film ("oh my god, they must be hiding something"), but think about it... it makes no sense to expect anyone to accept a hostile interview that's gauranteed to edit you into a raving monster. You know why moore tries to stay out of other peoples films? it's because he's afraid they'll use the same tricks he does, and he rather not be on the receiving end.

and war sucks, people die, shit happens, maybe expectations of a zero casualty, no innocent death war should be re-examined... if you're not up for it, then don't vote for the people that thought it'd be a good idea... in the presidential election, both kerry and bush said yes to war. I personally think the world's better without saddam, but the contingency and long term planning weren't done properly, and its turned into a bigger mess than was planned. Kerry waffles, Bush lacks long term vision, no one is perfect, life sucks, deal
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Old 06-26-2004, 07:49 AM   #8
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daseal, people will discredit it, and the right wingers will say, see proof!, and the left wingers will ignore it. people will believe only what they want to believe, and not that many people actually care about the truth as much as saying they're right.

I havent seen the film, and i havent looked for reviews of its accuracy, i really don't care, its a biased production (not leftwing/rightwing, but my opinion is the only one that can be right), and therefore uninteresting.

i found this much more interesting:
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Old 06-26-2004, 11:15 AM   #9
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Of course Moore's movie is one sided, should it be anything but??

He's trying to show the other side of things, does anyone think that our mainstream media is not also one sided??

People want to say why doesn't Moore show what Saddam did to his people, the gassings, cutting off people's hands, etc. Well that's because our media has that area well covered. What our media hasn't shown us is our soldiers coming back with missing legs, soldiers in VA hospitals pissed off about the war, families having to deal with the extreme grief of losing their loved ones and over what? Our government shoving democracy down another country's throat when they clearly don't want it?
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Old 06-26-2004, 12:45 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mattyk72
Of course Moore's movie is one sided, should it be anything but??

He's trying to show the other side of things, does anyone think that our mainstream media is not also one sided??

People want to say why doesn't Moore show what Saddam did to his people, the gassings, cutting off people's hands, etc. Well that's because our media has that area well covered. What our media hasn't shown us is our soldiers coming back with missing legs, soldiers in VA hospitals pissed off about the war, families having to deal with the extreme grief of losing their loved ones and over what? Our government shoving democracy down another country's throat when they clearly don't want it?
I honestly don't know what news u r watching, but those seem to be the headlines almost every night. every time there is a story about the war, it's never put in a positive light and every episode of world news seems to have atleast one story or punchline with a negative viewpoint towards the current administration.

daseal: that may be the case with there being ties between Osama and Bush just like we unfortunately put saddam into power, but ties have been severed between the two just like they could have been severed between saddam and bin laden. and to be honest I never heard about those "prisoner crates" with "innocent locals" which is kinda suprising cuz I would think that there would be something about that in the news for a while.

bottom line is that sure Moore probably believes what he says in his movies, but he also knows that his movie will strongly appeal to roughly half of the country as well as european countries currently filled with not only anti-bush people but anti-american as well. So he knows he's making a buckoo amount of money retelling quite a bit of stuff that's been relatively old news. He's playing off of people's hatred and ignorance just like he has with his other movies. some may see that as being a good business man or "showman" but personally it disgusts me. like others have said it's just the fact that his story is so narrow-minded in its viewpoints of the story. if this was a movie heavily in favor of bush I'd be skeptical about it 2 cuz for the complete story u can't have all of the facts and stretched facts coming from a one-sided viewpoint.
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Old 06-26-2004, 01:09 PM   #11
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yeah, matty... i see amputies and stories/photos of bombings and wounded iraqees everyday in the news... i've seen plenty of pissed off families complaining loudly too. I've also seen a lot of sensationalism in the news about how horrible it is or how much iraq's people hate is which don't really measure up to the people i've talked to that have been over there.

But moore's flogging a dead horse isn't he? he hates the war, he hates bush, he wants him out... does the film offer any solutions to the problem? does it pinpoint exactly what went wrong and how it could have been done properly (actual analysis, not just war sucks, say no to war or other generics)? or does it just show lots of images meant to upset people for sheer shock value?

on a side note, i'd like to thank everyone on the few political threads for not resorting to flames and name calling so far... usually that happens pretty fast for certain topics
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Old 06-26-2004, 02:34 PM   #12
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Moore is an ambulance chasing puke.

10's of thousands were out of work in the Auto Industry and what does he do? Makes a movie and makes a tone of money and fame.

2 Crazy kids in Columbine kill many kids and to motifies the community and the nation and what does Moore do? Makes a movie and makes a tone of money and fame.

3,500 plus people are killed in the Twin Towers and close to 1000 in this war and what does Moore do? You guessed it. Makes a movie and makes a tone of money and fame.

I bet he's at home wishing for another American tradagy he can capitalize on.

You think he is hoping more for a Nuclear Plant to be struck by the terrorists or maybe California to fall into the sea?

He's a man with no honor and none of my respect as a man or a human being.

But that's just my opinion.

peace to you bro
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Old 06-26-2004, 03:28 PM   #13
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AH, to live in interesting times! Man, do I miss the 90's when all we cared about was blow jobs and a blue dress...

Satirist, political pundit, self-promoting opportunist, gifted film-maker, jerk, self-hating American, all of the above, whatever you want to say about the guy, he gets people talking. He's won the Academy award, the Palm D'or, he created the biggest grossing documentary film ever, etc. Somebody out there likes him, and it's not JUST the French. I think he's preaching to the choir here, and in a rather shrill tone, but that seems to be the order of the day. Civility is out; diatribes are in. It's an election year in wartime.

Sammy fan: I kinda liked Roger and Me. Do you really think he made that one just for money and fame?

I haven't seen F 911, and I'm not sure if I will, at least in the theatre. But I read that the best part (far better than the Bush-Osama stuff) is when he's dealing with soldiers and their families. Is that true, Matty? What is that like?
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Old 06-26-2004, 04:29 PM   #14
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Matty,

I strongly disagree with your statement that the media is one-sided. The media is one-dimensional in the sense that they sensationalize, obscure facts to make a compelling story, oversimplify everything, and generally appeal to the lowest common denominator, but they are far from one-sided.

Fox news is unquestionably conservative, but the rest of the "mainstream" TV media is very, very liberal. Bush is strongly disliked by just about everyone in the media. Just about every TV anchor and TV producer supports democrats. Op-ed pieces in the NY Times, Washington Post, and LA Times (arguably the three big newspapers) always endorse democratic candidates in presidential and congressional races. Talk radio is unquestionably conservative. Hollywood is very, very liberal. So, I'm not sure how you can say that the media is one sided (conservative or liberal).

As for Michael Moore, I'm going to see his latest since he's entertaining. I liked Roger and Me and Bowling for Columbine, so I'll see F9/11. However, I'm going to take his film as entertainment and nothing more. He does not make bold faced lies; he makes misleading insinuations, exaggerates, cherry-picks the facts, oversimplifies the complex, and makes no effort to be objective (even if an objective approach leads him to an anti-war conclusion). In sum, he's just like President Bush.

For example, in Bowling for Columbine, do you remember the nuclear missile plant scene. HE was interviewing a man working at a missile plant and asked him where he thought Dylan Klebold and Eric Harris came about to use violence. The man, who had a missile behind him, said no. Funny stuff. But, what Moore didn't say was that the missile plant didn't produce ballistic missiles designed to deliver nukes; the missiles delivered sattelites to space.

Another example of how Moore misleads his audiences can be found in F9/11. Granted, I have not seen the movie, but I have seen interviews in which he discusses the movie. He goes to great lengths to make some insinuation that because the Bush Administratin had links to the Bin laden family. What the fuck does that mean? Is he saying that Bush wanted 9/11 to happen? Is he saying he was in cohoots with Osama? OF course not. Instead, he tries to make the audience associate Bush with Bin Laden. What he doesn't mention is that it was Dick Clarke, who Moore calls an American hero, was the man who ordered the Bin Laden family out of the country. Does Moore think Dick Clarke was "in on a conspiracy?" Then why is he an American hero after he attacks Bush? Clarke was an anti-terrorism expert. Do you think Clarke was an Al Qaeda operative?

Moreover, Moore made no mention that all 135 Saudis who were allowed to leave the country were checked to see if they were on any terrorist watchlist. Moreover 30 of the 135 Saudis were interviewed by FBI agents.

Also, Moore fails to mention how big the Bin laden family is. Osama is one of what, 40 siblings? Also, the Bin Laden family is perhaps the most influential family, outside of the royals, in Saudi Arabia. Therefore, anyone doing business in Saudi Arabia is likely to deal with the Bin Ladens, in one capacity or another, at some point. Finally, the Bin Laden family has publicly repudiated Osama's activities. Some of the "Evil" Bin Ladens the Bush administration, or actually Dick Clarke, let out of the country were respected members of the Harvard community who donated millions to the school.

Moore's funny, not politically astute, honest, or objective.
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Old 06-26-2004, 06:50 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by That Guy
yeah, matty... i see amputies and stories/photos of bombings and wounded iraqees everyday in the news... i've seen plenty of pissed off families complaining loudly too.
you'll see plenty of stuff in this movie that you definitely do not see on TV, trust me
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