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Old 12-31-2006, 01:27 AM   #31
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Re: Saddam hangs

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Thou shall not kill shouldn't have exceptions.
The actual commandment is "Thou shall not commit murder". Generally, and from a legal standpoint, state authorized killing (as in war or the death penalty) is not considered "murder" but rather justified homicide. IMO, "Thou shall not kill" is one of those over generalizations of judaeo/christian wisdom that is simply wrong. If necessary, I guarrantee you I will use deadly force to defend my wife and child and, so long as I do so appropriately, I do not believe that God will view me as a sinner or that the State will punish me as a murderer. Thou shalt not kill has many exceptions that, traditionally, have been acceptable to both the state and most religions.

I am on the fence about the death penalty and believe that the circumstances dictate its use. I oppose the death penalty when it is being used for mainly vengence but, when it is truly being used as penalty considered to be just for the crime committed, the death penalty can be appropriate. The question (and area for incredible disagreement) always is whether or not a killing is being made for vengence or justice.

In this case, while individuals are seeking vengence against Saddam, the State of Iraq is (hopefully) saying: Your gross misuse and abuse of power that led to the killing of thousands (perhaps millions) of innocents entrusted to your care demands that you be killed - not to avenge their deaths but as a statement to the world and to all future rulers of Iraq that they will be held accountable for their actions.
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Old 12-31-2006, 03:39 AM   #32
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Re: Saddam hangs

I tried creating a political thread once....once.
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Old 12-31-2006, 03:46 AM   #33
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Re: Saddam hangs

All of you that are in support of the death sentence are totally forgetting about how this is just gonna cause more sectarian violence...political leaders get treated differently..period that is how it is...no one gets hanged nowadays bc it is barbaric and as a civilization we have moved beyond that..even tho the criminal may have been barbaric.

Yeah it isnt fair, but he should have gotten a different judgement, if the court system in place was not based on anger and retaliation this would not happen. He should not have been killed...only exacerbates the problem.
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Old 12-31-2006, 03:59 AM   #34
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Re: Saddam hangs

Hooskins is right - it will exacerbate the problem. That said, the fundamental differences between the Shia and the Sunni are so deep and so rooted in hate right now, I don't know that anything is going to make it better. However, this does give the Sunni an "excuse" to kill more Shia, but they were probably going to do that anyway.
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Old 12-31-2006, 08:45 AM   #35
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Re: Saddam hangs

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Hooskins is right - it will exacerbate the problem. That said, the fundamental differences between the Shia and the Sunni are so deep and so rooted in hate right now, I don't know that anything is going to make it better. However, this does give the Sunni an "excuse" to kill more Shia, but they were probably going to do that anyway.
This is exactly right. These two groups are similar to the Palestinians and Israelis in how deeply rooted their hatred is. They're in civil war. Saddam's execution may fan the flames for a brief period, but in the end, they're simply looking to kill each other because they hate one another.

And whether or not this will increase sectarian violence should not be a reason to not execute Saddam. If anything, Iraq needs a sense of justice and order. You kill thousands in cold blood, you get the death penalty. People need to see justice being served or they're going to totally lose faith in the Iraqi government altogether.
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Old 12-31-2006, 10:56 AM   #36
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Re: Saddam hangs

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I tried creating a political thread once....once.
LOL. Nice, very nice.
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Old 12-31-2006, 11:04 AM   #37
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Re: Saddam hangs

If ladell doesn't fumble... Shit, wrong thread.
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Old 12-31-2006, 11:06 AM   #38
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Re: Saddam hangs

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Dang, we done gone and went political now. Thou shalt not kill was a commandment listed in the Bible, supposedly handed down by God.

You're suggesting that we legislate religion, which I wholeheartedly disagree with.

Maybe you meant that killing is just wrong from a moral sense, regardless of what religion you subscribe to. If so, then your point is a little easier to swallow, just poor choice of words I guess.

Either way though, religion should stay out of it altogether. If it's a moral issue, I guess I have different morals. There are circumstances in which killing is OK in my book (not many, but there are some).
I meant it in a moral way of speaking, I'm not trying to get all religious because believe me, I'm about as non-religious as you can get.

I just don't think killing in any manner should be justified.
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Old 12-31-2006, 11:56 AM   #39
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Re: Saddam hangs

And all they are really fighting about is the ammount of virgins they get when they see the pearly white gates.

IMHO

Should build a giant electric wall around the middle east and close them off from the rest of the world untill one group finally wins, then we can open the middle east back up untill the winning group has a civil war on how to where your turban properly.
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Old 12-31-2006, 02:14 PM   #40
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Re: Saddam hangs

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And all they are really fighting about is the ammount of virgins they get when they see the pearly white gates.

IMHO

Should build a giant electric wall around the middle east and close them off from the rest of the world untill one group finally wins, then we can open the middle east back up untill the winning group has a civil war on how to where your turban properly.
wow...pretty ignorant statement right there.
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Old 12-31-2006, 02:21 PM   #41
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Re: Saddam hangs

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This is exactly right. These two groups are similar to the Palestinians and Israelis in how deeply rooted their hatred is. They're in civil war. Saddam's execution may fan the flames for a brief period, but in the end, they're simply looking to kill each other because they hate one another.

And whether or not this will increase sectarian violence should not be a reason to not execute Saddam. If anything, Iraq needs a sense of justice and order. You kill thousands in cold blood, you get the death penalty. People need to see justice being served or they're going to totally lose faith in the Iraqi government altogether.
Hm, ok I accept your point. I still believe that any kind of death sentence is ridiculous and barbaric. As a progressive society a hanging or a death sentence is terrible. I still can't believe this would even happen to a political leader.

The judgment was also reached by the majority sect, which Sadamm is not a part of. The sentence was determined by a bias party.

I dont think I life time imprisonment would be viewed as an injustice, at least to educated folk.

Like Matty I think a death sentence is morally wrong, regardless of the criminal. It only encourages that kind of action by the government, by showcasing it(especially with a hanging). The government would instill more confidence with its people if it did not rush to hang him one minute before the start of their religious holiday. It would also have a good image if it did not hang people like they did in the 17th century.
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Old 12-31-2006, 03:05 PM   #42
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Re: Saddam hangs

My random thoughts on the death penalty:

#1 I really truly think that there are legitimate arguments for all sides as our death penalty system is very flawed, but IMO the death penalty is justifiable for certain people.

#2 IMHO you cannot argue that the death penalty is always wrong unless you are also a pacifist and think that ALL war is wrong and immoral.

#3 If killing a murderer "sends the wrong message," does imprisoning a kidnapper send a wrong message too?

#4 I am confused why many death penalty opponents oppose the death penalty on moral grounds and simultaneously argue "if you really want to punish a criminal, send them to prison for life. Living in prison for life without any possibility of parole is about as cruel as it gets." I'm not sure which is more cruel, the death penalty or life in prison without the possibility of parole and the high probability of repeated sexual assault.

PS - Thus far the discussion has been good and civil, but if immature posts appear I think this thread is going to be locked in a hurry.
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Old 12-31-2006, 03:15 PM   #43
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Re: Saddam hangs

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Hm, ok I accept your point. I still believe that any kind of death sentence is ridiculous and barbaric. As a progressive society a hanging or a death sentence is terrible. I still can't believe this would even happen to a political leader.

The judgment was also reached by the majority sect, which Sadamm is not a part of. The sentence was determined by a bias party.

I dont think I life time imprisonment would be viewed as an injustice, at least to educated folk.

Like Matty I think a death sentence is morally wrong, regardless of the criminal. It only encourages that kind of action by the government, by showcasing it(especially with a hanging). The government would instill more confidence with its people if it did not rush to hang him one minute before the start of their religious holiday. It would also have a good image if it did not hang people like they did in the 17th century.
Is your concern more so with the method of execution? And the fact that it was televised?
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Old 12-31-2006, 03:29 PM   #44
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Re: Saddam hangs

Personally, I don't care about the death penalty. There are some that deserve it, some that don't. I do think life in prison without the possibility of parole is a harsher sentence, unless that individual likes living in prison, which is probably highly doubtful.
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Old 12-31-2006, 04:45 PM   #45
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Re: Saddam hangs

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Is your concern more so with the method of execution? And the fact that it was televised?
I think that is a huge factor for me, but either way I would rather not see a political leader, with pockets of influence be put to death. I do feel it would trigger more violence than normal. Also in this day and age, I just feel the death penalty is wrong. I do not support Virginia and its usage of the death penalty.

As for chances of parole, you can always put a prisoner away for life no parole. That solves that issue in my mind. I do understand a concern was that he could be broken out of jail by supporters, but I think that is over exaggerated by those who made this decision.

And I do not generally support war, only as a last resort. I guess that makes me a pacifist, but I feel that term has a negative connotation.

For this ruling the choice was made by his enemies, not a fair and balanced jury. I know he was a terrible person, but there have been worst political leaders that have gotten off with nothing. He just deserved life in jail.

Honestly what was gained out of this? A message? I think him being jailed has a huge message too. How does this give the Iraqis more confidence in their government? It just shows the bias towards the majority, and that hanging is acceptable as a general procedure. Killing is just answered with more killing. How is the government not like the terrorists by releasing a video of a hanging? No matter how bad your enemy is, you cannot sink down to their level, and the government just did that. I guess I would not have this much of a problem with the ruling if it wasnt a hanging, but I would not support it either way.

Seeing him hang really gives nothing back to me. Shows me their government is not modern enough to deal with the issue in a proper way. It shows the government is only going to cause more problems in the future now the majority is in power. He kills tons of people, but killing him doesn't solve the problem. The problem is this deeply rooted sectarian violence, that goes way beyond him.

Watch for more bloodshed....
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