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F... "Everything Happens for a Reason"

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Old 01-04-2007, 01:33 PM   #16
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Re: F... "Everything Happens for a Reason"

Once, I heard something pretty profound, and it kinda relates:

I was told that everything everyone does their first choice. Every action somebody performs is their first choice, given the circumstances. For example, a homeless person is homeless, because it's their choice -- not due to some external events.

Here's the reasoning:
Nobody does anything they don't want to do. Sure, there are things we don't want to do -- but if we do them, it's for a reason. Usually, when we do something we don't "want" to it's because we'd rather not face the consequences of neglecting to do them. Therefore, everything we do is because we choose to -- mostly because we are trying to avoid worse circumstances. So, a homeless person is homeless because they would rather not face the consequences/responsibilities of not being homeless. Their first choice is to be homeless.

This can be carried to the point of absurdity, so let's not get too literal. Of course my first choice would be to win the lottery and never work again. However, I choose to work everyday because the outcome is more predictable and more certain. Therefore, work is my first choice -- d'oh!
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Old 01-04-2007, 01:42 PM   #17
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Re: F... "Everything Happens for a Reason"

I'm going to try and attempt to discuss the free will/'everything happens for a reason' from two sides; religion and science.

(Before I posted, onlydarksets stole my thunder here.) From a faith based view, it is my understanding that most faiths have some sort of "God is all knowing" element built into them. If this is true, then God knows the future, which to me means that the future is predetermined.

From a science based view, we are nothing more than matter put together from its most finite, elemental, atomic form, correct? Now all of these pieces of our being have properties, etc. We then use these properties to base predictions on behavior of things that these things makeup. Such as this element combines with this other element and such and such will always happen. It's all based on physics, still.

Now human behavior, for some reason, doesn't fall into the physics realm with most people. Why not? We're all based from these elemental objects that we know the properties of. But you say we think and have thoughts that guide us. What are thoughts, though? If we truly are a science based, godless existence, then thoughts are just reactions within our brain due to all of the atoms being in the right place at the right time within our universe(s) and the reactions they have to those proximities and known reactions. So, everything is again predetermined.

If we understood physics well enough (maybe that alignment of existence will occur some day) we could create a giant mathematical formula that took all things into account (the placement of every piece of matter, the speed of said matter, the reactions of every matter with every type of matter, the reactions of that matter while traveling x speed while passing by y matter, etc etc etc etc etc) we could accurately predict every single reaction and movement (including the actions of the atoms in your head making you think about this post) to predict "the future". So this brings me back to fate. Is there really such a thing if we can, theoretically, predict every thought and subsequent reactionary movement we will make/do?

Sorry for this mis/loose use of some scientific terms.
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Old 01-04-2007, 01:44 PM   #18
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Re: F... "Everything Happens for a Reason"

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Originally Posted by GhettoDogAllStars View Post
Once, I heard something pretty profound, and it kinda relates:

I was told that everything everyone does their first choice. Every action somebody performs is their first choice, given the circumstances. For example, a homeless person is homeless, because it's their choice -- not due to some external events.

Here's the reasoning:
Nobody does anything they don't want to do. Sure, there are things we don't want to do -- but if we do them, it's for a reason. Usually, when we do something we don't "want" to it's because we'd rather not face the consequences of neglecting to do them. Therefore, everything we do is because we choose to -- mostly because we are trying to avoid worse circumstances. So, a homeless person is homeless because they would rather not face the consequences/responsibilities of not being homeless. Their first choice is to be homeless.

This can be carried to the point of absurdity, so let's not get too literal. Of course my first choice would be to win the lottery and never work again. However, I choose to work everyday because the outcome is more predictable and more certain. Therefore, work is my first choice -- d'oh!
That's basically Hobbes.

The first time I heard it I thought it was bunk. Over time, though, I've come to realize that it is true. Everyone is supremely self-interested. Sometimes their interests are noble - they enjoy the feeling of helping others. However, they do what they do because it's their choice. I've yet to think up an exception, although I would love for there to be one.
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Old 01-04-2007, 01:46 PM   #19
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Re: F... "Everything Happens for a Reason"

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Originally Posted by cpayne5 View Post
I'm going to try and attempt to discuss the free will/'everything happens for a reason' from two sides; religion and science.

(Before I posted, onlydarksets stole my thunder here.) From a faith based view, it is my understanding that most faiths have some sort of "God is all knowing" element built into them. If this is true, then God knows the future, which to me means that the future is predetermined.

From a science based view, we are nothing more than matter put together from its most finite, elemental, atomic form, correct? Now all of these pieces of our being have properties, etc. We then use these properties to base predictions on behavior of things that these things makeup. Such as this element combines with this other element and such and such will always happen. It's all based on physics, still.

Now human behavior, for some reason, doesn't fall into the physics realm with most people. Why not? We're all based from these elemental objects that we know the properties of. But you say we think and have thoughts that guide us. What are thoughts, though? If we truly are a science based, godless existence, then thoughts are just reactions within our brain due to all of the atoms being in the right place at the right time within our universe(s) and the reactions they have to those proximities and known reactions. So, everything is again predetermined.

If we understood physics well enough (maybe that alignment of existence will occur some day) we could create a giant mathematical formula that took all things into account (the placement of every piece of matter, the speed of said matter, the reactions of every matter with every type of matter, the reactions of that matter while traveling x speed while passing by y matter, etc etc etc etc etc) we could accurately predict every single reaction and movement (including the actions of the atoms in your head making you think about this post) to predict "the future". So this brings me back to fate. Is there really such a thing if we can, theoretically, predict every thought and subsequent reactionary movement we will make/do?

Sorry for this mis/loose use of some scientific terms.
Just as Austin Powers did thinking about time travel and his mojo, I have now gone cross eyed thinking about this.
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Old 01-04-2007, 01:54 PM   #20
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Re: F... "Everything Happens for a Reason"

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Originally Posted by cpayne5 View Post
I'm going to try and attempt to discuss the free will/'everything happens for a reason' from two sides; religion and science.

(Before I posted, onlydarksets stole my thunder here.) From a faith based view, it is my understanding that most faiths have some sort of "God is all knowing" element built into them. If this is true, then God knows the future, which to me means that the future is predetermined.

From a science based view, we are nothing more than matter put together from its most finite, elemental, atomic form, correct? Now all of these pieces of our being have properties, etc. We then use these properties to base predictions on behavior of things that these things makeup. Such as this element combines with this other element and such and such will always happen. It's all based on physics, still.

Now human behavior, for some reason, doesn't fall into the physics realm with most people. Why not? We're all based from these elemental objects that we know the properties of. But you say we think and have thoughts that guide us. What are thoughts, though? If we truly are a science based, godless existence, then thoughts are just reactions within our brain due to all of the atoms being in the right place at the right time within our universe(s) and the reactions they have to those proximities and known reactions. So, everything is again predetermined.

If we understood physics well enough (maybe that alignment of existence will occur some day) we could create a giant mathematical formula that took all things into account (the placement of every piece of matter, the speed of said matter, the reactions of every matter with every type of matter, the reactions of that matter while traveling x speed while passing by y matter, etc etc etc etc etc) we could accurately predict every single reaction and movement (including the actions of the atoms in your head making you think about this post) to predict "the future". So this brings me back to fate. Is there really such a thing if we can, theoretically, predict every thought and subsequent reactionary movement we will make/do?

Sorry for this mis/loose use of some scientific terms.
I was tempted to approach this from a physics standpoint, but I couldn't even figure out how to explain it. You did a pretty good job.

One thing I would add: Due to the principle of uncertainty, nobody can ever know the outcome of every event (even though all events are based upon natural laws). As we discover more about quantum physics it seems that there is a great deal of chaos in the universe, and not as much order as we thought. Then there's that idea of order in chaos -- that a state of chaos is the most ordered state -- I still can't comprehend that one.
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Old 01-04-2007, 01:59 PM   #21
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Re: F... "Everything Happens for a Reason"

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Originally Posted by GhettoDogAllStars View Post
I was tempted to approach this from a physics standpoint, but I couldn't even figure out how to explain it. You did a pretty good job.

One thing I would add: Due to the principle of uncertainty, nobody can ever know the outcome of every event (even though all events are based upon natural laws). As we discover more about quantum physics it seems that there is a great deal of chaos in the universe, and not as much order as we thought. Then there's that idea of order in chaos -- that a state of chaos is the most ordered state -- I still can't comprehend that one.
But is it really chaos? I'm not saying I'm right, but to me chaos is a good label for things that we don't understand.
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Old 01-04-2007, 02:05 PM   #22
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Re: F... "Everything Happens for a Reason"

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But is it really chaos? I'm not saying I'm right, but to me chaos is a good label for things that we don't understand.
It's definitely just a label. I don't know much about chaos, or the uncertainty principle, so I'm pretty much talking outta my ass. We are so obsessed with answers, we've got to make some up. I'm willing to believe we don't know, and that we made some lame excuse for being ignorant. Why can't we just be satisfied with not knowing? I like mysteries.
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Old 01-04-2007, 02:20 PM   #23
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Re: F... "Everything Happens for a Reason"

i was going to post something, but after reading some of this, i am not sure if im on this level. let me say, that i am not sure about predetermined fate. but on the flip side, i do think that good things happen to good people. if its those good people making it happen....
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Old 01-04-2007, 02:28 PM   #24
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Re: F... "Everything Happens for a Reason"

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That's just not true. Many religions (Christianity included) believe their respective God possesses infinite intelligence (i.e., omniscience). With omniscience, everything that will happen is known. Thus, we are free to "choose", but, in fact, someone knows how it will all turn out. You can argue semantics, but a known ending, even if we believe we are "choosing" it, is fate.

It's a topic that confuses people far more intelligent than me, but certain religions are intertwined with fate. When someone says "Everything happens for a reason," it can often be a statement of faith.
If you read down a bit further through that very link, you see all the conflicting thoughts and views on predestination in Christianity. It's all over the map, there is not one generally accepted view.
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Old 01-04-2007, 02:42 PM   #25
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Re: F... "Everything Happens for a Reason"

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i was going to post something, but after reading some of this, i am not sure if im on this level. let me say, that i am not sure about predetermined fate. but on the flip side, i do think that good things happen to good people. if its those good people making it happen....
Not intended as an argument, dmek, but good things happen to bad people with about as much regularity as good people. Bad things happen to good people with about as much regularity as bad people.
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Old 01-04-2007, 02:52 PM   #26
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Re: F... "Everything Happens for a Reason"

I'll stick with my trusty stand-by:

"Shit Happens"

Whether it's good shit, bad shit, or indifferent shit, shit happens. Does it happen for a reason? Sure. Does it happen because of fate? Sure. As far as I know, I'm along for this roller coaster ride called life, and whatever happens...happens.
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Old 01-04-2007, 02:59 PM   #27
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Re: F... "Everything Happens for a Reason"

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I'll stick with my trusty stand-by:

"Shit Happens"

Whether it's good shit, bad shit, or indifferent shit, shit happens. Does it happen for a reason? Sure. Does it happen because of fate? Sure. As far as I know, I'm along for this roller coaster ride called life, and whatever happens...happens.
UGH.

NO. Shit just happens. Period. That bumper sticker never said anything about fate. It just meant Shit Happens, deal with it. Roll with the punches.

If fate is predetermined, please go outside right now, get in your car, and run over the first police officer you see. If there is a grand master plan for you, and none of your choices matter, then who cares if you run over a police officer? You're going to end up with the same situation, no matter what you choose to do, right?

Better yet, hey guess what, your fate is predetermined! Might as well drink and smoke and eat McDonalds everynight! After all, fate already knows how you're going to die right? So doing all those things won't affect anything. It won't increase your chances of a heart attack, it won't increase your chances of emphysema, it won't increase your chances of lung cancer. Just do whatever you want, your free will has no affect on your fate. How many doctors would say that makes any sense?

F that kind of thinking.
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Old 01-04-2007, 03:08 PM   #28
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Re: F... "Everything Happens for a Reason"

The God Delusion makes perfect sense to me. Just remember kids, everyone is trying to f'you out of your hard earned dollars and God is the friend of scam artists.

p.s. I use to be religious until I started thinking for myself instead of soaking the BS my parents were feeding me.
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Old 01-04-2007, 03:08 PM   #29
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Re: F... "Everything Happens for a Reason"

I never said a thing about fate being predeterminded, and there being a grand master plan...I think you are clearly looking way too deep into what I said. Ask AMD. I'm a pretty simple guy, with simple intentions, and I try to lead a pretty simple life.

All I'm saying is that whatever floats your boat, however you see the world is fine by me. If you think it's fate, good for you. If you think there's reason behind everything, good for you. If you think you have the worst luck in the world, so be it. All I know is, I stand by my decisions, no matter what, I rarely regret the decisions I make, and I'm just livin' life. L-I-V-I-N'.

My decisions guide me onto the path that's best for me. If it's predetermined, so be it. If it's fate, great. I am in control of my own destiny, as my destiny is best suited by the choices I make. I can either blindly believe that my decisions are already decided for me, or I can throw a goddamn curve ball at life. Either way, I gladly stand behind what I decide.

Everything does happen for a reason. It's each of us that determines what that reason is.
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Old 01-04-2007, 03:18 PM   #30
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Re: F... "Everything Happens for a Reason"

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I never said a thing about fate being predeterminded, and there being a grand master plan...I think you are clearly looking way too deep into what I said. Ask AMD. I'm a pretty simple guy, with simple intentions, and I try to lead a pretty simple life.

All I'm saying is that whatever floats your boat, however you see the world is fine by me. If you think it's fate, good for you. If you think there's reason behind everything, good for you. If you think you have the worst luck in the world, so be it. All I know is, I stand by my decisions, no matter what, I rarely regret the decisions I make, and I'm just livin' life. L-I-V-I-N'.

My decisions guide me onto the path that's best for me. If it's predetermined, so be it. If it's fate, great. I am in control of my own destiny, as my destiny is best suited by the choices I make. I can either blindly believe that my decisions are already decided for me, or I can throw a goddamn curve ball at life. Either way, I gladly stand behind what I decide.

Everything does happen for a reason. It's each of us that determines what that reason is.
OK you confused me. The post I reacted to said "shit happens. Does it happen for a reason? Sure. Does it happen because of fate? Sure."

You clearly said things happened because of fate. Maybe poor choice of words and you were trying to say something like "if you want to think of it as fate, be my guest?"

I'm on the same page now though. You determine your fate based on what you decide to do.
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