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Here Goes Nothing ...

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Old 03-13-2007, 12:48 PM   #16
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Re: Here Goes Nothing ...

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Originally Posted by Schneed10 View Post
Agreed. When we went in there, we created a power vaccuum that led to all this violence we're seeing now. We owe it to those people to stick it out.
I am shocked at the current civility of this thread. many good posts.

Yes, we do owe it to them, and the rest of the world, like N. Korea, Iran, etc are watching closely. I am deeply concerned with every drop of American blood that is spilled. However, combat losses for this war are a fraction of what many others have been.
That having been said, we need to get in this war or get out. Commit the necessary manpower to winning it now, and forever, or blow it off. Install a workable from of gov't and ........."have a nice day". For the record, I do not recommend premature withdrawl as an option here...............or, hmmmm.......anywhere else for that matter.
Unfortunately, Bush has to deal with unfavorable political factions unwilling to commit to this option. It obviously is not luck that the last terrorist attack on American soil was before the war. If anything you read is true, the problems lie (as is usually the case) predomanantly with a small portion of the radical populace. They will have to be controlled, or killed. It's not just a problem in Iraq. Check out the probs with radical Islam in France, and England. It's a world wide problem that most of the rest of the world fears to address. If left unchecked, we will pay for it many times over, later.
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Old 03-13-2007, 12:49 PM   #17
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Re: Here Goes Nothing ...

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Not to hijack ... but did someone say, "iRack"?

Mad TV - The iRack
Take it to the super happy fun thread, please.
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Old 03-13-2007, 01:00 PM   #18
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Re: Here Goes Nothing ...

in my opinion there has to be a time table. and like tmc said, once the United States feels that certain regions are secure, then they need to be turned over to the Iraqi people. we have created one helluva of a mess by over estimating the amount of Iraqi people that really wanted a democracy. just because it kind of works here doesn't mean we should will it on everyone. when religion plays that big a part in their everyday life's, democracy simply isn't the way to go
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Old 03-13-2007, 01:10 PM   #19
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Re: Here Goes Nothing ...

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Suppressing the teachings of any religion kind of flies in the face of one of the building blocks our country was built on. It's kind of unAmerican, even if the religion is completely bonkers.

But radical Islam is not true Islam. The teachings of radical Islam teach that jihad must be waged on the Jews and Christians, and that the infidels must die. There is no negotiation with radical Islam, those that are in it preach death to the Jews and to Americans, no compromises.
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Old 03-13-2007, 01:16 PM   #20
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Re: Here Goes Nothing ...

Hey guys, I didn't read through all the posts, but I thought that this was a really good read on what's going on in Iraq.

washingtonpost.com

It talks about how President Bush's strategy of a "surge", by all early signs, is working. One can only hope.
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Old 03-13-2007, 02:52 PM   #21
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Re: Here Goes Nothing ...

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Hey guys, I didn't read through all the posts, but I thought that this was a really good read on what's going on in Iraq.

washingtonpost.com - nation, world, technology and Washington area news and headlines

It talks about how President Bush's strategy of a "surge", by all early signs, is working. One can only hope.
Your right, good article
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Old 03-13-2007, 03:03 PM   #22
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Re: Here Goes Nothing ...

Interesting article. It's interesting that the press has remained fairly silent about the relative peace in Baghdad. I guarantee you that the press would be jizzing all over themselves if the plan was failing horribly. But, then again, the press knows that disasters sell more papers than success stories.
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Old 03-13-2007, 03:07 PM   #23
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Re: Here Goes Nothing ...

Reading in some of the Iraqi blogs:

"Not only official statements say so (Defense ministry officials said today that attacks are down by 80% in Baghdad). It’s a reality I live in nowadays, at least in my neighborhood and its surroundings. It is also what I hear from friends and relatives in other parts of the city.
We are hearing fewer explosions and less gunfire now than two weeks ago and that, in Baghdad, qualifies as quiet."


"Looking at the relative increase in the number of attacks and their geographic extent one can expect the coming days to bring more escalation, but with the amount of power available for US and Iraqi troops I think the bad guys will not be able to achieve much."

-Quotes from (IRAQ THE MODEL)
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Old 03-13-2007, 03:12 PM   #24
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Re: Here Goes Nothing ...

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Originally Posted by RobH4413 View Post
Reading in some of the Iraqi blogs:

"Not only official statements say so (Defense ministry officials said today that attacks are down by 80% in Baghdad). It’s a reality I live in nowadays, at least in my neighborhood and its surroundings. It is also what I hear from friends and relatives in other parts of the city.
We are hearing fewer explosions and less gunfire now than two weeks ago and that, in Baghdad, qualifies as quiet."


"Looking at the relative increase in the number of attacks and their geographic extent one can expect the coming days to bring more escalation, but with the amount of power available for US and Iraqi troops I think the bad guys will not be able to achieve much."

-Quotes from (IRAQ THE MODEL)
DAMMIT, I knew I should have taken????????? Taken?????? Hmm....Iraqi instead of Spanish!! Who knew
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Old 03-13-2007, 03:17 PM   #25
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Re: Here Goes Nothing ...

It looks to shed a little light on Iraq.

I'm very cautiously optimistic. As far as the whole media thing, I'm not surprised at all.
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Old 03-13-2007, 03:43 PM   #26
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Re: Here Goes Nothing ...

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I think you could add West Germany to the list.
west germany wasn't just america, and it wasn't unified either. there were other countries helping there and it took 44 years to finally get it right.
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Old 03-13-2007, 03:50 PM   #27
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Re: Here Goes Nothing ...

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Although the status quo is unacceptable, I do not think that we can simply walk away from Iraq.

If Somalia or Afghanistan looked like terrorist havens, what do you think Iraq will look like post-withdrawal? Iran, and other states, will use Iraq as a staging ground to launch terrorist attacks elsewhere. However, unlike Somalia or Afghanistan, Iraq is not located in some desolate area without any significant infrastructure and far away from large cities.

Although Al Qaeda was not in Iraq before the invasion, they are there now and we cannot simply retreat without emboldening those who think that America is a paper tiger that will run at the sight of blood. I believe that our enemies' resolve to fight is, in part, dependent on whether they believe that we can be defeated. Most think that we will run and lack the determination that they do. The war in Iraq not only affects our present, it affects our future ability to wage wars successfully and our credibility in general.

If people were/are concerned about humanitarian crises like Somalia, Rwanda, Darfur, etc., what do people think will happen in Iraq if we leave? The Iraqi civil war is not going to end, it is going to get worse. I've never understood why some opposed the war in Iraq and supported intervening in Bosnia, Rwanda, Darfur, etc. (BTW, I opposed both Iraq and all other humanitarian interventions).

What do we do about those hundreds of thousands who have cooperated with the U.S., its allies, or the Iraqi government? They, and their families, are almost certain to be killed in a horrible way if we leave and I do not think it would be honorable to simply leave them to their fates.
iraq had stability that darfur etc do not. and though saddam killed a lot of his own people, it's not even close to what's been happening in parts of africa (and they have much more primitive armies and populations that would be much more supportive of ending their enduring civil strife, instead of a situation like iraq, were it got made a LOT worse than it was pre-invasion).

btw, the supporters and iraqi employees of the US are already the ones paying the steepest price in lives lost. while leaving would obviously make it much worse, it's not exactly roses right now anyways.
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Old 03-13-2007, 03:51 PM   #28
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Re: Here Goes Nothing ...

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west germany wasn't just america, and it wasn't unified either. there were other countries helping there and it took 44 years to finally get it right.
You're right the Americans had some help from the British, just like they are getting in Iraq. I guess the French did get a token portion in the South. The reunification of both East and West Germany took ~44 years but West Germany (Bonn Republic) was relatively stable in a much shorter time period.
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Old 03-13-2007, 04:06 PM   #29
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Re: Here Goes Nothing ...

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iraq had stability that darfur etc do not. and though saddam killed a lot of his own people, it's not even close to what's been happening in parts of africa (and they have much more primitive armies and populations that would be much more supportive of ending their enduring civil strife, instead of a situation like iraq, were it got made a LOT worse than it was pre-invasion).
300,000 of his own civilians were killed during his reign and another 1M Iraqis and Iranians were killed when Saddam made a land grab during the Iran-Iraq War. It's pretty hard to beat those numbers.
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Old 03-13-2007, 04:11 PM   #30
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Re: Here Goes Nothing ...

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west germany wasn't just america, and it wasn't unified either. there were other countries helping there and it took 44 years to finally get it right.
This is why I think it's so hard to say "the US needs to be out of a completely rebuilt Iraq by year XXXX." Maybe it's our culture, but it seems like no one wants to face the fact that rebuilding a nation, especially one that still has to deal with outside influences that want to build it into a decidely anti-Western state, is going to take a very long time.
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