Warpath  

Home | Forums | Salary Cap Info | Shop | Donate | Stay Connected




Go Back   Warpath > Off-Topic Discussion > Parking Lot


John McCain: What Went Wrong?

Parking Lot


Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 04-04-2007, 12:29 AM   #46
Living Legend
 
GTripp0012's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Evanston, IL
Age: 27
Posts: 15,994
Re: John McCain: What Went Wrong?

Quote:
Originally Posted by FRPLG View Post
Politically that was Bush's BIGGEST HUGEST GIGANTIC ENORMOUS BLUNDER. This invasion was not about WMDs, Saddam, Iraqi sponsored terrorism or anything like that. This has been about one thing the entire time. Creating a successful democratic Iraq that could be a springboard to improving the entire region. When this war started that was the reason and it still is today. But Bush and the rest of his buffoons decided to "sell" this war for all the other reasons and not a one of them was totally sustainable. They f*cked that up and I remember thinking when this started that they were f*cking it up. People paid close attention to politics at the time knew this was the major reason but the Bushites didn't go with that propaganda. They "sold" this as a regular old war with an assumed, yet undetermined, timeline and clear winners and losers when anyone who really saw this for what it was knew this was something that was going to be a long term deal. A real long term deal. To this day I don't understand why they sold it any other way. To me I can't understand why they thought selling it for the real and legitimately good reasons was a bad idea. Even if it takes more work to sell it then at least you haven't created a false sense of expectations and such. That is totally what they did and it is now killing them politically. If they had sold it properly none of this would be going on. All they'd have to say is "Well we told you this was going to be hard and take a long time. And we laid out for you what we were trying to achieve and right now we are right on track." Instead it's a quagmire that Americans weren't prepared for and we want out. All because they didn't let everyone know what we were really getting into.
Excellent post.

I think 20 years down the road when emotions subside, I think its going to be apparent that Bush did a lot of things right. Not saying that the right will outweigh the wrong or anything, just that his perception in history is going to be a lot different than his current perception of bumbling baffoon.
__________________
according to a source with knowledge of the situation.
GTripp0012 is offline   Reply With Quote

Advertisements
Old 04-04-2007, 09:16 AM   #47
MVP
 
12thMan's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: washington, D.C.
Posts: 11,458
Re: John McCain: What Went Wrong?

Quote:
Originally Posted by RobH4413 View Post
I dis-agree with a lot that you're saying.

A very good friend of mine recently came home from his year long tour in Iraq and continues to think that there is a lot of promise there. The military objective isn't this abstract concept that your portraying it to be.

We're giving contracts out to the local population to help set up the infrastructure, and providing them security while they attempt to rebuild the country, while teaching the locals how to facilitate growth, and stability.

We're helping speed along the progress of businesses by making sure they have reliable resources (electric, water, gas, etc...). The thinking goes beyond beating down insurgents, beyond taking the "heads" of certain leaders.

The theory behind it is that as the economy grows, the nation will realize who are the good guys. Quite frankly, the country is sick and tired of all the fighting. They're yearning for stability, yearning for consistency. They don't deserve a surge of troops, and then a total bail out... resulting in widespread chaos.

We attacked initially, I didn't support the war in Iraq. That doesn't mean that this is anywhere close to a parallel situation. We can't fix our mistake by bailing out, we can't let these people suffer because we ****ed up. It just isn't fair.

Ultimately, like I said earlier, It's about the economy:

If there are no places to work, no stability, no direction, then the youth will turn to what's in front of them. Instead of getting a job, raising a family, and working towards a better future, there will certainly be youths joining the insurgency. The problem will rise exponentially without economic success.

Conversely, if we do succeed, there is hope for a self sustaining democratic society. This isn't a lost cause. We aren't here dicking around. There is a clear cut plausible objective, and I think most people don't realize that. They watch the news, see the death, and lump it all into one big mess.

The biggest problem my buddy from Iraq had with the media, is that they don't report all the progress that's being made. We don't see the good, and get all fussy when someone suggests that it exists.

I'm not saying that the place isn't a war zone. I'm not saying that there isn't death and killing, because there absolutely is. What I am saying, is that there is a clear cut way to win, which is supporting the economic interests and hence produce stability and a self-sustaining government.

Again, what does success look like and how long will it take? To sustain a government means that both Sunni and Shiitie will have to lay down the sword long enough to accomplish those means.

I have all the belief in the world that many of our soldiers are maintaining a positive outlook and some good things really are getting done over there. But it's not the soldiers I'm talking about it that are disgruntled, per se, it's the lawmakers that sent them there in the first place. They're the ones unhappy with the results and progress being made. They're the ones speaking out against the war and the current direction and this present Administration. Many of them feel they echo the sentiments of our country and the men and women who are standing in battle day in and day out.

Water, electricity, and gas? Didn't they have those things before we came over there to help them?
12thMan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-04-2007, 10:51 AM   #48
Quietly Dominating the East
 
Hog1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Naples, Florida
Posts: 9,985
Re: John McCain: What Went Wrong?

Quote:
Originally Posted by dmek25 View Post
if you have an anthill in your backyard, and step on it, killing all the ants, have you succeeded in killing ants in your neighbors back yard? I'm not sure if my analogy hits home, but securing such a small player in the grand scheme of terrorism doesn't even put a nick in the world wide terror network that surrounds us every day
This is near to my heart (as I fight the ants in my yard continously). While I am perverting your model to some degree Dmek, check this. I would go after the ants in my yard with whatever I have, as to do nothing, invites further, and more intensifying ant, attack problems. I will organize and execute the most logical strategy (and I do) based on the information available, and the resources at hand.
While I may not always have the perfect plan in mind, doing something, rather than nothing helps to reduce their number, or at least help to keep them at bay.
__________________
Goodbye Sean..........Vaya Con Dios
thankyou Joe.......
“God made certain people to play football. He was one of them.” – Joe Gibbs
Hog1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-04-2007, 07:10 PM   #49
MVP
 
dmek25's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: lancaster,pa
Age: 53
Posts: 10,525
Re: John McCain: What Went Wrong?

my whole point with the ant analogy was that we can turn Iraq into a diplomatic stronghold, and with all the other chaos that the rest of the middle east lives in every day, its really not going to do much to deter terrorism around the world
__________________
"It's better to be quiet and thought a fool than to open ones mouth and remove all doubt."
courtesy of 53fan
dmek25 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-04-2007, 07:44 PM   #50
MVP
 
FRPLG's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Age: 36
Posts: 10,070
Re: John McCain: What Went Wrong?

Quote:
Originally Posted by dmek25 View Post
my whole point with the ant analogy was that we can turn Iraq into a diplomatic stronghold, and with all the other chaos that the rest of the middle east lives in every day, its really not going to do much to deter terrorism around the world
Any ideas on what would?
FRPLG is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-04-2007, 08:14 PM   #51
Wildcard Bitches
 
RobH4413's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Bethesda, MD
Age: 30
Posts: 2,506
Re: John McCain: What Went Wrong?

Quote:
Originally Posted by dmek25 View Post
my whole point with the ant analogy was that we can turn Iraq into a diplomatic stronghold, and with all the other chaos that the rest of the middle east lives in every day, its really not going to do much to deter terrorism around the world
Yes, and my whole point is that if we leave a mess in Iraq, it would do a great deal to increase terrorism around the world.
__________________
This is what happens when you find a stranger in the Alps!
RobH4413 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-04-2007, 08:30 PM   #52
MVP
 
dmek25's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: lancaster,pa
Age: 53
Posts: 10,525
Re: John McCain: What Went Wrong?

Quote:
Originally Posted by FRPLG View Post
Any ideas on what would?
maybe if we would have stuck to the original plan, and captured bin laden.Afghanistan should have been given a deadline to hand him over, or else. now he sits in a cave somewhere laughing at g bush and the rest of the united states
__________________
"It's better to be quiet and thought a fool than to open ones mouth and remove all doubt."
courtesy of 53fan
dmek25 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-04-2007, 11:40 PM   #53
MVP
 
FRPLG's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Age: 36
Posts: 10,070
Re: John McCain: What Went Wrong?

Quote:
Originally Posted by dmek25 View Post
maybe if we would have stuck to the original plan, and captured bin laden.Afghanistan should have been given a deadline to hand him over, or else. now he sits in a cave somewhere laughing at g bush and the rest of the united states
I meant it seriously. What are the ideas the "bring them home" crew have? I don't know of any but that is probably ignorance. I do know that if I don't know what solutions they have then they haven't done a good job of laying them out. Bringing them home is not a solution it is an action that provides no more national security than keeping them there. I'd just like to know besides bringing the troops home what are the follow up actions that will move us toward a safer country and world?


On another note: He sits in a cave and laughs a G Bush? The silliness of that statement is overboard dmek.
FRPLG is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-05-2007, 05:03 AM   #54
MVP
 
dmek25's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: lancaster,pa
Age: 53
Posts: 10,525
Re: John McCain: What Went Wrong?

if you give the Iraqi security a time line on when the troops will be gone, it puts the pressure on them to be accountable for their own people. I'm a firm believer that people will usually react the way they are perceived. if you think someone cant handle something, and that is the expectation, then they probably will not. but if you expect someone to succeed, they will look at things alot differently
and I'm not sure why the cave reference is that silly. what do you think that bin laden is up to these days?
__________________
"It's better to be quiet and thought a fool than to open ones mouth and remove all doubt."
courtesy of 53fan
dmek25 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-05-2007, 08:44 AM   #55
MVP
 
FRPLG's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Age: 36
Posts: 10,070
Re: John McCain: What Went Wrong?

Quote:
Originally Posted by dmek25 View Post
if you give the Iraqi security a time line on when the troops will be gone, it puts the pressure on them to be accountable for their own people. I'm a firm believer that people will usually react the way they are perceived. if you think someone cant handle something, and that is the expectation, then they probably will not. but if you expect someone to succeed, they will look at things alot differently
and I'm not sure why the cave reference is that silly. what do you think that bin laden is up to these days?
I meant about terrorism ine general.

But as for Irag how does telling the enemy when we are going to stop a war with them make any sense? I mean did we tell Hitler, "Hey Adolph, we'll be gone by '46." It sounds dumb to me. Blast our performance all you want but the solution to Iraq isn't sometime dumb ass timeline. The solution is to do a better job which we can probably all agree Bush and his clan present dubious chances for.

And to say the Bin Laden is LIVING IN A CAVE and laughing at us is really over the top.
FRPLG is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-05-2007, 09:16 AM   #56
Quietly Dominating the East
 
Hog1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Naples, Florida
Posts: 9,985
Re: John McCain: What Went Wrong?

Quote:
Originally Posted by dmek25 View Post
my whole point with the ant analogy was that we can turn Iraq into a diplomatic stronghold, and with all the other chaos that the rest of the middle east lives in every day, its really not going to do much to deter terrorism around the world
I get you.
The thing about the Middle East is this. It's no secret that a hell of a lot Muslims think they are in some kind of holy war to kill all Americans, and those like us. (France, and the UK have bigger problems than us because of the Middle eastern influence within their own countries, It may get serious in both before long)
I think 911 taught us......they mean it. To do nothing (my ant post) invites more of the same. I don't know, for sure, what the right plan is. To date I have heard not heard anyone that does.
No, it has not been easy. From the beginning, (and at every oppurtunity) and to his credit, Bush stated, it will be a LONG road. Possibly Bush's biggest folly was to allow many (if not the majority) of American voters to fall out of love with the effort.
I think we have made serious progress. We have had no further attacks on American soil. It is not perfect by any means, what has gone on in Iraq. If we finish what we started, it may well be the NEW republic of the Middle East. It might aid in providing us, and our allies some peace. Time will tell.
We did not have a rule book, or Hoyle to go by. I don't think any military mind of consequence would agree that this can be run on a time-line. To many unknowns. I think what you see, is what you get. We are going to have to be in some level of..............Police action for the forseeable future to maintain that level of security.
If we pull out prematurely (which is NEVER good), it will be seen as an ENORMOUS victory for the enemy, and accelerate attacks worldwide. Something we cannot afford..........
__________________
Goodbye Sean..........Vaya Con Dios
thankyou Joe.......
“God made certain people to play football. He was one of them.” – Joe Gibbs
Hog1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-05-2007, 04:02 PM   #57
Franchise Player
 
Sheriff Gonna Getcha's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Age: 36
Posts: 8,317
Re: John McCain: What Went Wrong?

After listening to Air America Radio (yes, I listen to it and to Rush Limbaugh to see what extremists on the left and right think), I'm starting to think that many Americans actually want to see "the surge" fail. Basically, Air America was predicting before the surge took place that it would fail and now is seemingly enjoying news of bombing attacks and suicide bombers killing people.

It seems like the right refuses to believe that Iraq is in very bad place, and the left refuses to believe that things in Iraq could improve with better leadership (e.g., Gen. Petraeus) and more resources (i.e., the surge). After years of rightfully complaining that our troops were woefully underequipped and undermanned, I don't see how those very same people can attack the notion of providing our forces with additional equipment and troops.

BTW, an interesting report from the "established" media seems to indicate that the surge may be working. YouTube - The Surge Is Working

Rant over
Sheriff Gonna Getcha is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-26-2007, 10:58 AM   #58
Wildcard Bitches
 
RobH4413's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Bethesda, MD
Age: 30
Posts: 2,506
Re: John McCain: What Went Wrong?

John McCain on the Daily show the other day.

They were down each others throats during the entire interview. The crowd really really loves John Stewart, and dislikes old pasty white guys.

Part 1:
YouTube - Straight-Talk Express: "In The Shop For Repairs Part 1"
Part 2:
YouTube - Straight-Talk Express: "In The Shop For Repairs Part 2"

I prefer the old pasty white guy.
__________________
This is what happens when you find a stranger in the Alps!
RobH4413 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-26-2007, 12:08 PM   #59
MVP
 
12thMan's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: washington, D.C.
Posts: 11,458
Re: John McCain: What Went Wrong?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hog1 View Post
I get you.
The thing about the Middle East is this. It's no secret that a hell of a lot Muslims think they are in some kind of holy war to kill all Americans, and those like us. (France, and the UK have bigger problems than us because of the Middle eastern influence within their own countries, It may get serious in both before long)
I think 911 taught us......they mean it. To do nothing (my ant post) invites more of the same. I don't know, for sure, what the right plan is. To date I have heard not heard anyone that does.
No, it has not been easy. From the beginning, (and at every oppurtunity) and to his credit, Bush stated, it will be a LONG road. Possibly Bush's biggest folly was to allow many (if not the majority) of American voters to fall out of love with the effort.
I think we have made serious progress. We have had no further attacks on American soil. It is not perfect by any means, what has gone on in Iraq. If we finish what we started, it may well be the NEW republic of the Middle East. It might aid in providing us, and our allies some peace. Time will tell.
We did not have a rule book, or Hoyle to go by. I don't think any military mind of consequence would agree that this can be run on a time-line. To many unknowns. I think what you see, is what you get. We are going to have to be in some level of..............Police action for the forseeable future to maintain that level of security.
If we pull out prematurely (which is NEVER good), it will be seen as an ENORMOUS victory for the enemy, and accelerate attacks worldwide. Something we cannot afford..........
Hog, what progress have we made in Iraq? Not a personal attack on you, but I hear people say, well kids are going to school again and now they have gas and running water, etc.

They had these things prior to the invasion, so how is that progress?
We're simply back at square one, if that. And by all accounts, many Iraquis, as demonstrated by the protest a couple of weeks ago, are anxious for Americans to go home.
12thMan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-26-2007, 01:04 PM   #60
Pro Bowl
 
Beemnseven's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Virginia Beach
Age: 41
Posts: 5,303
Re: John McCain: What Went Wrong?

Quote:
Originally Posted by firstdown View Post
First the schools over the past decade in Iraq had deminished so bad that attendence had droped to something like 53% and at one time their schools did very well. To use one protest of a very small % of people does not really support an argument. We have protest all the time in Washington but that does not mean that we all agree with what those few stand for. Its really hard to a grip on the progress that is made because the media refusses to do any story that is of a positive nature on Iraq and we get a one sided story.
But the question has to be asked -- is this why we are there? Is it now the responsibility of the United States military to make sure schools around the world are adequate?

How many American lives is it worth to see to it that Iraqi schools are operating, or that there's running water and electricity? If the war supporters are forced into a position of pointing out how fast the basic utilities of that country are being rebuilt (after we destroyed them in the first place) -- if that's "progress" to them, then they are truly grasping at straws here.
Beemnseven is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On



All times are GMT -4. The time now is 03:04 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2015, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site is not officially affiliated with the Washington Redskins or the NFL.
Page generated in 0.33977 seconds with 9 queries

Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.2.0 RC5

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25