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Gun Restrictions and Your Rights

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Old 04-19-2007, 06:33 PM   #136
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Re: Gun Restrictions and Your Rights

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The deaths of innocent, unarmed, helpless victims would certainly go up.
I think that's being a little too selective though. I'm talking deaths in general. I think that would even be marginal because say someone ends up in a shootout, there's no guarantee they still walk away.
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Old 04-19-2007, 06:36 PM   #137
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Re: Gun Restrictions and Your Rights

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The Constitution was designed to be re-interpreted and amended as society (and its problems) changed. The 4th Amendment is no exception. For example, if you go into most public places, no one can search your person without probable cause. But, if you go into an airport (a public place), the government has every right to search you. The development of the airplane was something the Founding Fathers didn't envision and which the Supreme Court addressed, thereby changing the meaning of the 4th Amendment. Moreover, the government has a right to use all sorts of electronic surveillance equipment on people and places (e.g., airplane "flybys" over property to see what people are doing) without a search warrant and without violating the 4th Amendment.

IMO, the gun control issue and the 2nd Amendment is no different. Today's weapons are far more lethal than muskets and the need for militias to prevent against the "King's men" is far less great than it was in the 18th Century. Gun violence is a major problem that requires a serious and dramatic solution. I don't know exactly what that solution is, but I do know that the status quo is not working.
Short of a majority of Americans, there is nothing stopping anyone from attempting to lobby their representatives to repeal the 2nd amendment.

When the people are prohibited from using firearms to defend themselves, the crime rate will go up. Guns will be a black market item, we will repeat the mistakes we made with the prohibition of alcohol and drugs, and the individuals who have no intention of following the law, who mean to cause harm upon others will have no disincentive to try it, since they will have free reign over helpless victims.

There will never be a police force large enough to handle such an unprecedented onslaught.

What's "not working" is the understanding that there will always be crime, there will always be maniacs who thwart the law, and there will always be victims. No amount of legislation will change the capability of evil in human beings. But to deny the people their most basic ability to defend themselves against an armed attacker, would be to make the problem much, much worse.
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Old 04-19-2007, 06:38 PM   #138
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Re: Gun Restrictions and Your Rights

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Va. Shootings: What the World is Saying - Newsweek National News - MSNBC.com

As someone who is interested in International Relations, Reading this article just shows how other countries view our gun laws. Most of the stern ones come from France, no suprise there. I believe that the person from France does have a point though: people saying we need to let everyone have guns is just backwards thinking. I know too many hot headed people that don't need guns.

I'm for getting rid of them. So someone who wants your wallet might have second thoughts because you could be packing, or he might just shoot your ass and take it because he doesn't want to take that chance.
I read this quote and became severely heated:

"It is a big loss for the American people and I think that this is a message from Allah to them to stop and think of what is happening in Iraq. Thousands of Iraqis lost their sons or fathers and all of this was because of the so-called American democracy being exported to Third World countries."


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Old 04-19-2007, 06:39 PM   #139
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Re: Gun Restrictions and Your Rights

Supposing, for argument's sake, that crime does spike. At some point, would it not decrease as guns age, the supply of ammo dwindles, etc.? Even if we don't reap the benefits of a relatively gun free society for another 100 years, I think it makes sense to get rid of guns.
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Old 04-19-2007, 06:39 PM   #140
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Re: Gun Restrictions and Your Rights

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They tell me I need seatbelts. They tell me I don't need a surface to air missile. They tell me I can't plant mines in my front yard to deter robbers. They tell me I don't need a nuclear device. I'm being sarcastic, but the government has, does, and always will tell me what I need and don't need. It's just a matter of degree and IMO I don't need an AK-47.
Those are not examples of the government telling you what your needs are, they are telling you what you can and cannot do. There is a distinction.
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Old 04-19-2007, 06:40 PM   #141
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Re: Gun Restrictions and Your Rights

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Supposing, for argument's sake, that crime does spike. At some point, would it not decrease as guns age, the supply of ammo dwindles, etc.? Even if we don't reap the benefits of a relatively gun free society for another 100 years, I think it makes sense to get rid of guns.
And how many helpless victims have to wait out this type of deterioration?

Do you have the right to defend yourself SSG?
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Old 04-19-2007, 06:44 PM   #142
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And how many helpless victims have to wait out this type of deterioration?

Do you have the right to defend yourself SSG?
#1. I doubt that the country would become the Mad Max World that you are predicting it would be.

#2. I have the right to defend myself, but I should not have the right to possess a weapon that can kill dozens of people should I decide to flip out.
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Old 04-19-2007, 06:44 PM   #143
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Re: Gun Restrictions and Your Rights

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I read this quote and became severely heated:

"It is a big loss for the American people and I think that this is a message from Allah to them to stop and think of what is happening in Iraq. Thousands of Iraqis lost their sons or fathers and all of this was because of the so-called American democracy being exported to Third World countries."


All though misguided, it is very important to understand how other countries think, so we can all come to a better understanding and remove the misconceptions we have of each other.

In my opinion, its going to be VERY VERY easy for other countries to make the connection with the Iraq war, to Bush, to this event, even though they aren't that connected...or are they?
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Old 04-19-2007, 06:45 PM   #144
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I think that's being a little too selective though. I'm talking deaths in general. I think that would even be marginal because say someone ends up in a shootout, there's no guarantee they still walk away.
See, I don't think this is really a rational scenario. It's like saying, "what if there were no disease" ?

The horse is out of the barn as far as guns go. Weaponry for defense was a natural creation among human beings since the dawn of time.

I mean what are we going to do? Send SWAT teams out to raid every home in America to confiscate all firearms? Come on, that's never going to happen.
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Old 04-19-2007, 06:46 PM   #145
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Re: Gun Restrictions and Your Rights

Beems, do you think the readily available supply of weapons in Iraq is doing a good job of deterring crime?
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Old 04-19-2007, 06:48 PM   #146
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See, I don't think this is really a rational scenario. It's like saying, "what if there were no disease" ?

The horse is out of the barn as far as guns go. Weaponry for defense was a natural creation among human beings since the dawn of time.

I mean what are we going to do? Send SWAT teams out to raid every home in America to confiscate all firearms? Come on, that's never going to happen.
So, you don't take issue with our central premise (e.g., that in a perfect world guns would be banned). Rather, you believe that it is impossible to get firearms out of circulation?

First off, most handguns and assault weapons can be tracked. Second, as guns are confiscated they would be destroyed. Third, guns would no longer be manufactured. Fourth, a more limited supply of guns would drive cost up and, as cost goes up, the ability of criminals to access them decreases. The supply would run out to next to nothing over time.

BTW, I love how you discuss the matter intelligently and civilly. We disagree, but I've gotta give you props for style.
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Old 04-19-2007, 06:52 PM   #147
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Re: Gun Restrictions and Your Rights

Supply and Demand; busting out micro econ!

SGG does have a point. This would mean only rich people would be able to access guns and, in turn, be able to "defend" themselves.
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Old 04-19-2007, 06:53 PM   #148
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Re: Gun Restrictions and Your Rights

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#1. I doubt that the country would become the Mad Max World that you are predicting it would be.

#2. I have the right to defend myself, but I should not have the right to possess a weapon that can kill dozens of people should I decide to flip out.
1. You only have to look at recent events to recognize the capability of evil in the human heart. If you cannot envision a state in which the law-abiding won't be at the mercy of the lawless, then I don't know what else to say.

2. What if a dozen people mean to do you harm? Is your right of self-defense limited to the type of weapon your opponent has? i.e. they have a knife, so I can defend myself with a knife, but if they have handgun with a magazine capacity of 15 rounds, legally, I may not possess such a weapon.
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Old 04-19-2007, 06:56 PM   #149
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Re: Gun Restrictions and Your Rights

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Beems, do you think the readily available supply of weapons in Iraq is doing a good job of deterring crime?
Since the state of Iraq's government is in complete disarray and there's no semblance of a police force to adequately address the problem of crime, I'd say this is a poor comparison to use.

I will say that if guns were outlawed amongst the general public, there would still be crime, wouldn't you agree?
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Old 04-19-2007, 07:07 PM   #150
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Re: Gun Restrictions and Your Rights

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Since the state of Iraq's government is in complete disarray and there's no semblance of a police force to adequately address the problem of crime, I'd say this is a poor comparison to use.
You predict that, absent legal gun ownership, the streets of America would be unbelievably chaotic with death everywhere. As a corollary, you believe that the U.S. government is incapable of protecting the people by itself (i.e., it needs gun owners to assist). So, with regard to Iraq, I don't see how you can simply blame their ineffective government for the violence. After all, you already believe that our government is incapable of keeping us relatively safe.

Obviously, there are many other problems in Iraq (sectarian strife) that we do not have. So Iraq, of course, is not completely analogous. But, I don't think there is a single person who believes that the proliferation of weapons in Iraq has deterred criminals.

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I will say that if guns were outlawed amongst the general public, there would still be crime, wouldn't you agree?
I certainly agree. But, I also think that gun crimes would decrease as the availability of guns decreases and their cost increases.
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