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Gun Restrictions and Your Rights

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Old 04-18-2007, 01:14 PM   #16
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Re: Gun Restrictions and Your Rights

First off, good move LadyBrave. Kudos.

I'm not too up to snuff on the current legislation and the ins and outs of current laws. But I will say this, if we think that this incident is going to radically change existing gun laws, we'd better think again.

Also, you have to figure the vast majority of existing gun owners really are responsible and are law abiding citizens.
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Old 04-18-2007, 01:15 PM   #17
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Re: Gun Restrictions and Your Rights

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I have a pistol, and I support gun ownership in America. I realize that many people die from guns, and we could reduce the number of deaths from guns if they were outlawed. However, I do not support a reduction in liberties for the sake of security. I'd rather be free and insecure, than to be secure but not free. Freedom has costs.
I definately think that's a valid argument. What I find interesting, however, is that the people who advance such an argument support things like the Patriot Act and similar legislation and the anti-gun lobby generally opposes the Patriot Act etc. Seems like both "sides" hold contradictory beliefs.
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Old 04-18-2007, 01:26 PM   #18
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Re: Gun Restrictions and Your Rights

Why is it we do not lobby for the outlawing of alcohol? Can it not be held responsible for more deaths each year as a result of those under it's influence? Is the alcohol the problem, or the user?
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Old 04-18-2007, 01:30 PM   #19
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Re: Gun Restrictions and Your Rights

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Why is it we do not lobby for the outlawing of alcohol? Can it not be held responsible for more deaths each year as a result of those under it's influence? Is the alcohol the problem, or the user?
Not really. Moderation is the key. Alcohol in and of itself can't be blamed for anything....except tasting good.
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Old 04-18-2007, 01:35 PM   #20
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Re: Gun Restrictions and Your Rights

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I definately think that's a valid argument. What I find interesting, however, is that the people who advance such an argument support things like the Patriot Act and similar legislation and the anti-gun lobby generally opposes the Patriot Act etc. Seems like both "sides" hold contradictory beliefs.
Yep, you're right. From my experience, most gun supporters are also supporters of freedom-reducing terrorism laws, like the Patriot Act. Usually, they are the same people who advocate profiling, and the "kill 'em all" attitude. It is ironic.
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Old 04-18-2007, 01:40 PM   #21
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Re: Gun Restrictions and Your Rights

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Not really. Moderation is the key. Alcohol in and of itself can't be blamed for anything....except tasting good.
YOU are CORRECT!!!!!!! Alcohol cannot be blamed for anything..........and what else cannot be blamed?
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Old 04-18-2007, 01:48 PM   #22
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Re: Gun Restrictions and Your Rights

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First off, good move LadyBrave. Kudos.

I'm not too up to snuff on the current legislation and the ins and outs of current laws. But I will say this, if we think that this incident is going to radically change existing gun laws, we'd better think again.

Also, you have to figure the vast majority of existing gun owners really are responsible and are law abiding citizens.
I don't think this incident will cause any changes in the law, nor do I feel it should. If it does, the changes will be very minor. I think the current laws are fine for the most part, with the exception of allowing non US citizens to purchase and lack of mental health record access. I do think the states will look more closely at how criminal history and mental health information is disseminated to NICS though. Which is long overdue IMO.
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Old 04-18-2007, 01:56 PM   #23
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Re: Gun Restrictions and Your Rights

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I'm sorry if a person wants a gun and they do not obey our laws to start with they can find a way to get one. Now if we make them illegal for everyone then only the people who break the laws will have a weapon. If I'm correct I believe that over 2 million times a year a law abiding citizen protects themself with a gun. These are the only stats I could find but they do support what I have heard.
Ohio CCW Law - Statistic & Facts About Carrying Concealed Weapons
This is the argument that most anti-gun lobbyists seem to forget. Cocaine, Pot, Heroine, etc. are all illegal, yet 30% of the country uses or has used them at some point in their life. Making guns illegal will do next to nothing to prevent nut jobs from getting guns. All it will do is keep law abiding citizens from owning them. Case in point; Washington DC has some of the most strict gun laws in the nation, yet it's still in the top ten in gun related crime. What makes anyone think that this kid wouldn't have been able to get his hands on a gun, even if guns were completely outlawed?
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Old 04-18-2007, 01:58 PM   #24
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Re: Gun Restrictions and Your Rights

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I'm 100% in favor of repealing the 2nd amendment. Owning a gun makes no sense in today's world.
we hardly agree on anything. with that out of the way, i agree with this statement 100%.
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Old 04-18-2007, 02:01 PM   #25
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Re: Gun Restrictions and Your Rights

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This is the argument that most anti-gun lobbyists seem to forget. Cocaine, Pot, Heroine, etc. are all illegal, yet 30% of the country uses or has used them at some point in their life. Making guns illegal will do next to nothing to prevent nut jobs from getting guns. All it will do is keep law abiding citizens from owning them. Case in point; Washington DC has some of the most strict gun laws in the nation, yet it's still in the top ten in gun related crime. What makes anyone think that this kid wouldn't have been able to get his hands on a gun, even if guns were completely outlawed?
Sure, that's true, but wouldn't that change if they were made totally illegal? Sure, they're "tough" laws, but the fact you can get one period makes it accessible to almost anyone. While I don't want to see the law repealed, I want to see some MAJOR changes.
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Old 04-18-2007, 02:05 PM   #26
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Re: Gun Restrictions and Your Rights

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What makes anyone think that this kid wouldn't have been able to get his hands on a gun, even if guns were completely outlawed?
Agreed. A total ban on guns isn't a cure-all. However, tougher gun laws would certainly make it more difficult for would-be murderers to get their hands on guns in the first place. I don't think you need to subscribe to the belief that we achieve perfection to support tougher gun laws.
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Old 04-18-2007, 02:14 PM   #27
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Re: Gun Restrictions and Your Rights

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Sure, that's true, but wouldn't that change if they were made totally illegal? Sure, they're "tough" laws, but the fact you can get one period makes it accessible to almost anyone. While I don't want to see the law repealed, I want to see some MAJOR changes.
I also agree that gun laws need a major overhaul, but that'll only fix some of the problems. A thorough background check and mandatory waiting period should be enforced on all guns. That'd prevent some medicated kid that didn't get picked in a basketball game from walking into Walmart and buying a shotgun and coming back and blasting everyone. It wouldn't do much to deter a 23 year old that lives in a college town(where basically anything is accessible if you look hard enough) from finding a handgun. Those kinds of situations can't be fixed with gun laws.
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Old 04-18-2007, 02:16 PM   #28
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Re: Gun Restrictions and Your Rights

I would think that more disclosure from medical records could help. Maybe if someone is admitted to counseling or is taking certain types of drugs, they aren't allowed to have one.
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Old 04-18-2007, 02:26 PM   #29
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Re: Gun Restrictions and Your Rights

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I don't think anyone doubts that there are some, or even many, situations in which a gun would be useful, but such situations are vastly outweighed by instances in which a kid is filled by a gun accidentally going off, a gun being used against the owner by a criminal, etc. I simply don't believe that pro-gun lobbyists can honestly argue that the proliferation of guns is a good thing for society.

I really believe the only legitimate argument supporting gun ownership is that it is a constitutional and long-held right. I would still debate the point, but at least it's a valid argument.
I think your argument here is faulty.

First off the instances of children dying or being injured by a gun accidently are drastically smaller than instnces of self-defense using a gun. Just arguing numbers there. If you are talking about the weighting of each data set then that's a whole different argument.

As for criminals using an owner's gun against them I think that is even lower than instances of children getting accidently shot.

To me it comes down to one question:

How many criminals are going to be denied access to guns by outlawing guns?

If we can figure out a way to keep guns out of ALL criminals hands then I am all for outlawing guns but I have never heard of any ideas on how that would ever happen. I think criminals are going to have guns no matter what. Maybe less criminals will have guns but how much will the ones who do have them feel emboldened by the notion that whatever house they are breaking into or whichever woman they are going to attack and rape is not going to have a gun? Guns offer protection against these criminals and taking away that available protection isn't just a bad idea I think it is morally corrupt. The problem isn't guns. It is stupid/evil people getting them. How do we stop those people is what we need to figure out. A kneejerk reaction of outlawing guns for everyone is simply creating different problems. Problems that could be even worse.
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Old 04-18-2007, 02:28 PM   #30
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Re: Gun Restrictions and Your Rights

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Tell that to my buddy who has a carry permit and he, his wife and daughter where attacked. They may have just wanted his wallet and her purse but we don't know what they may have done. When they saw his gun they ran away as fast as they could go.
This is one of the few times when a gun was helpful, but it's anecdotal evidence. I need some concrete numbers to weigh the costs and benefits. The benefits of owning guns are few, but the costs are many. Consider:

- In 2003, 11,290 Americans were killed by Assault by Firearm. If you add up all other forms of murder, you don't even get half that many. The number of murders would drop if guns were outlawed. Some would still occur

- In 2003, 730 people were killed by accidental discharge of firearms. Gun accidents that could have been drastically reduced if guns weren't easily available.

- In 2003, there were 16,907 suicides by firearm. I know a good portion of these people would still kill themselves if the didn't have access to a gun. But blowing your brains out is the easiest way to do it. A number would be saved.

- There were 232 other deaths caused by firearm where the police weren't able to figure out what the intent was; ie was it murder, suicide, or accident.

This data comes from the NSC's website: Odds of Dying - NSC

Firstdown, that CCW data you posted is from 1992, before the Brady Bill even went into effect. It's so old, it's completely irrelevant now. Not to mention a quite biased source of information. If you can provide some relevant, unbiased statistics on guns as a crime deterrent, I'm all ears. But I haven't seen any, and I've looked.
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