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Gun Restrictions and Your Rights

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Old 04-19-2007, 03:16 PM   #121
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Re: Gun Restrictions and Your Rights

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Woah, hold on a minute here. Did you just say that people who are for gun control are anti-Christ? I can't say I agree there.

I don't know that it's fair or right to go back to our founding fathers everytime as the basis for an argument. For one thing, the right to bear arms doesn't even really mean the same thing anymore because the arms (or weapons) aren't even the same anymore. There is a pretty big difference between giving everyone the right to a musket and the right to an AK.
Actually no, I didn't say that, it happened to be in the article I pasted, I was going to take a few things out of it which maybe I should have, or put a little foot note, I don't neccasarily agree with that, nor have I read the book they recommended, it was just the basic premace of the article I was refering to. Sorry.

The type of weoponry is irrelevent, it's the spirit in which, and why, this law was brought forth in our constitution.

Any good con man relies on the trust of the person he is going to con.

With all these dictatorships in all these countries around the world, and with all these people being oppressed by them, you still think we are immuned to such a takeover? Maybe not tommorow, but there are people working overtime to try and make it happen.
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Old 04-19-2007, 03:17 PM   #122
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Re: Gun Restrictions and Your Rights

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True. However, it's not about suppression by force. Nobody would stand for that. The federal government has slowly taken away liberties since its creation. That is what I would like to see stop.
What kind of liberties?
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Old 04-19-2007, 03:23 PM   #123
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Re: Gun Restrictions and Your Rights

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I believe they would think we are wimps, and not true patriots. Most people don't care about government infringement as long as they have their Mercedes and Starbucks.

At the close of the Constitutional Convention of 1787, when queried as he left Independence Hall on the final day of deliberation, a lady asked Benjamin Franklin, "Well Doctor what have we got a republic or a monarchy?"

Franklin replied, "A Republic, if you can keep it."
nice post.

Thought you might like this.


War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself.


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Old 04-19-2007, 03:26 PM   #124
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Re: Gun Restrictions and Your Rights

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True. However, it's not about suppression by force. Nobody would stand for that. The federal government has slowly taken away liberties since its creation. That is what I would like to see stop.
I actually think our government provides FAR more liberties than the Founders envisioned. Just to name a few such liberties: (1) freedom for slaves (black people didn't fare to well under our Forefathers); (2) freedom for women (sex discrimination was sanctioned by the government in 1776 and women were treated as property of their husbands); (3) freedom for Native Americans (we haven't given them small pox ridden blankets in a little while); (4) the right to privacy (which, the Supreme Court only recently recognized); (5) substantive due process; (6) free public schooling; (7) social security and medicare; (8) the right to an abortion (regardless of what you think of it, it is a newly recognized constitutional right); (9) far more liberties for the press (read the Alien & Sedition Act); (10) the right not to be imprisoned for failing to pay debts; (11) the right to speech has been broadened in NUMEROUS ways (people used to be imprisoned for speaking out against WWI and the draft, it used to be a criminal offense in some states to distribute a pamphlet showing a woman's thigh, etc); (12) the right to unionize (unions used to be prosecuted under the Sherman Anti-trust Act as illegal conspiracies to restrain trade); (13) the right to workplace safety (see OSHA); and (14) the right for adults between the age of 18 and 21 to vote. Every Amendment to the Constitution (save Prohibition) since the 19th century (13th through 27th)expanded our rights. The list goes on and on.

Or, look at WWII when our government interned Japanese American citizens en masse in internment camps. And that was after a government attacked a military installation, it did not take place after "hidden" terrorists attacked civilian buildings. Can you honestly see our government doing that today? Our government also summarily executed "enemy combatants" who were U.S. citizens in WWII. Not so today, see the controversy over guys like Jose Padilla.

It is a myth is that we have fewer rights today than we did in 1776. But don't believe me, talk to any constitutional law scholar. The scope of rights provided by the Constitution and by acts of Congress has been consistently broadened.

Our rights have been expanded for many reasons. First, mass media jumps over infringements of civil liberties. Two, people expect a hell of a lot more today out of our government than they did 50, 100, 200 years ago. People think they have an inherent right to health care, subsidies, social security etc. Three, watchdog groups like the ACLU are fighting the government in court every day. As much as conservatives hate the ACLU, few of them realize that the ACLU is the epitome of a conservative organization.
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Old 04-19-2007, 04:31 PM   #125
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Re: Gun Restrictions and Your Rights

SGG, you're awesome!
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Old 04-19-2007, 05:59 PM   #126
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Re: Gun Restrictions and Your Rights

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the one thing that bothers me most about our constitution is you would be hard pressed to find any 200+ year old piece of paper that hasn't been amended.
That's why they included an amendment process, to change the Constitution as the need arises.

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the 2nd amendment( the right to bear arms) is misinterpreted and needs to be changed. its that simple
If it's misinterpreted, then why does it need to be changed? What do you think it was supposed to mean?
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Old 04-19-2007, 06:10 PM   #127
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Re: Gun Restrictions and Your Rights

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I don't know that it's fair or right to go back to our founding fathers everytime as the basis for an argument. For one thing, the right to bear arms doesn't even really mean the same thing anymore because the arms (or weapons) aren't even the same anymore. There is a pretty big difference between giving everyone the right to a musket and the right to an AK.
Let's apply that same argument to another individual right that our founders came up with -- the Constitutional guarantee against unreasonable searches and seizures.

Certainly they never envisioned the terrorist plots of the 21 century, "dirty bombs", cell phones, or other remote electrical detonation devices.

Would you say this guarantee is similarly 'outdated' and should be scrapped, since the world is a different place now and times have changed? Would you argue that their call for probable cause and search warrants issued by an objective third party to be the product of a primitive age and should be adjusted for modern times?
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Old 04-19-2007, 06:15 PM   #128
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Re: Gun Restrictions and Your Rights

in the process of forming our new government, a collection of checks and balances was created to keep the new government in line with the democratic thought. no one at that time new if it would work. he we are about 225 years later, and for the most part, the system works. i just don't understand the thought process of the people that think our government could turn into a dictatorship. if this administration hasn't done it, it isn't going to happen
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Old 04-19-2007, 06:19 PM   #129
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Re: Gun Restrictions and Your Rights

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Let's apply that same argument to another individual right that our founders came up with -- the Constitutional guarantee against unreasonable searches and seizures.

Certainly they never envisioned the terrorist plots of the 21 century, "dirty bombs", cell phones, or other remote electrical detonation devices.

Would you say this guarantee is similarly 'outdated' and should be scrapped, since the world is a different place now and times have changed? Would you argue that their call for probable cause and search warrants issued by an objective third party to be the product of a primitive age and should be adjusted for modern times?
i think people are flexible enough to go with the flow. but when the powers start abusing it, thats when the chaos starts. the patriot act, in the beginning, was a good tool to combat terroism. but once the powers realized what they had, it became abused to the point it should probably be abolished
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Old 04-19-2007, 06:20 PM   #130
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Re: Gun Restrictions and Your Rights

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Just for a second imagine that handguns were made totally illegal in this country, do you think that deaths go UP or DOWN? Sure, people can say that they'll just use other things, but it's a lot easier to run from a knife than a gun.
The deaths of innocent, unarmed, helpless victims would certainly go up.
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Old 04-19-2007, 06:21 PM   #131
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Re: Gun Restrictions and Your Rights

Va. Shootings: What the World is Saying - Newsweek National News - MSNBC.com

As someone who is interested in International Relations, Reading this article just shows how other countries view our gun laws. Most of the stern ones come from France, no suprise there. I believe that the person from France does have a point though: people saying we need to let everyone have guns is just backwards thinking. I know too many hot headed people that don't need guns.

I'm for getting rid of them. So someone who wants your wallet might have second thoughts because you could be packing, or he might just shoot your ass and take it because he doesn't want to take that chance.
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Old 04-19-2007, 06:25 PM   #132
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Re: Gun Restrictions and Your Rights

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Let's apply that same argument to another individual right that our founders came up with -- the Constitutional guarantee against unreasonable searches and seizures.

Certainly they never envisioned the terrorist plots of the 21 century, "dirty bombs", cell phones, or other remote electrical detonation devices.

Would you say this guarantee is similarly 'outdated' and should be scrapped, since the world is a different place now and times have changed? Would you argue that their call for probable cause and search warrants issued by an objective third party to be the product of a primitive age and should be adjusted for modern times?
The Constitution was designed to be re-interpreted and amended as society (and its problems) changed. The 4th Amendment is no exception. For example, if you go into most public places, no one can search your person without probable cause. But, if you go into an airport (a public place), the government has every right to search you. The development of the airplane was something the Founding Fathers didn't envision and which the Supreme Court addressed, thereby changing the meaning of the 4th Amendment. Moreover, the government has a right to use all sorts of electronic surveillance equipment on people and places (e.g., airplane "flybys" over property to see what people are doing) without a search warrant and without violating the 4th Amendment.

IMO, the gun control issue and the 2nd Amendment is no different. Today's weapons are far more lethal than muskets and the need for militias to prevent against the "King's men" is far less great than it was in the 18th Century. Gun violence is a major problem that requires a serious and dramatic solution. I don't know exactly what that solution is, but I do know that the status quo is not working.
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Old 04-19-2007, 06:26 PM   #133
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Re: Gun Restrictions and Your Rights

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I believe that the person from France does have a point though: people saying we need to let everyone have guns is just backwards thinking. I know too many hot headed people that don't need guns.
So it is you who gets to decide what other people's needs are?

Suppose someone started dictating to you what you do and do not need?
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Old 04-19-2007, 06:29 PM   #134
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Re: Gun Restrictions and Your Rights

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So someone who wants your wallet might have second thoughts because you could be packing, or he might just shoot your ass and take it because he doesn't want to take that chance.
Interesting, I never even thought of that point. There are a lot of criminals who use guns in crimes but who have no intention of using them. Maybe, if they thought they'd get shot at, they'd just ambush people so as to avoid the risk of a "fair" shootout.
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Old 04-19-2007, 06:31 PM   #135
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Re: Gun Restrictions and Your Rights

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So it is you who gets to decide what other people's needs are?

Suppose someone started dictating to you what you do and do not need?
They tell me I need seatbelts. They tell me I don't need a surface to air missile. They tell me I can't plant mines in my front yard to deter robbers. They tell me I don't need a nuclear device. I'm being sarcastic, but the government has, does, and always will tell me what I need and don't need. It's just a matter of degree and IMO I don't need an AK-47.
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