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Old 05-08-2007, 10:20 AM   #31
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Re: Jesus Camp:

I am not going to get into detail on this, but I am one of the Religous fanatics spoken of here. In the defense of God, I am not worthy to bear his grace; but he is worthy of my praise. My actions are not always pleasing to Him, but you cannot fault him for mine and other believers shortcommings.
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Old 05-08-2007, 10:57 AM   #32
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Re: Jesus Camp:

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Originally Posted by saden1 View Post
And what brush might that be? I am wasn't talking about the people who practice religion, rather the whole notion of religion. There isn't a single religion without contradictions and that something I can't get past, especially since god is suppose to be omnipotent and divine. I can't prove or disprove the existence of god, but I can say religion is manure flavored ice-cream on pretty cone. It is highly illogical, contradictory, and breads fear. It is evil as it divides.
I'm sorry but I simply disagree and take offense to the assertion that "religion" is, in and of itself, evil. As with all things man-made "religion" can be used for good or ill. If you're objection is to "organized" religion, I humbly suggest you are a dilettante in matters of religious spirituality and, probably, have either (a) not practiced spiritual based religion "religiously" or (b) had a truly bad experience with an organized religion.

First and foremost, and as to "organized" religion, I can only speak to Christianity as it is the only religion I have both studied and practiced. Based on that, when the Christian "religion" is practiced in a manner true to its original inspiration, it is not "manure flavored ice-cream on a pretty cone", nor is it illogical or contradictory and it certainly does not "breed evil" by division. Rather, it is a both simple and complex discipline that can, with time and effort, bring a richer and deeper understanding of the universe, our place in it and the underlying truth of its existence that seeks and tolerates all paths to God. With that said, and by definition, all religions do not necessarily have the same message as Christianity and certainly not all organized religions are equivalent in terms of the good which they promote. Regardless of the tenets underlying any particular religion, however, "religion" itself is merely a tool created by mankind to define and practice an agreed upon code of conduct.

And just so we're clear, let me define "religion" as I understand it. By the dictionary, the word "religion" is defined as

"a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, esp. when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs."

As I see it, the three essential elements of religion's definition are: (1) "a set of beliefs" and (2) involving "ritual observances" and (3) "containing a moral code" or similar code of conduct.

As an aside on one aspect of religion: The ritual aspect of religion provides a way and form to teach people, through repetition, symbolism and recitation, of a religion's "set of beliefs" by reinforcing certain tenets basic to the religion (in Christianity the celebration of mass, the recitation of the lords prayer and the apostles or Nicene creed). The rituals practiced "in church" by Christians are intended as both a common celebration of Christianity's underlying message and, at the same time, a basic starting point for one's study into the infinite love of God, not the conclusion or final summation of our personal spiritual journey. Think of any discipline: isn't there a need for basic forms that provide teaching (In Karate, the use of Kata; In music, the practice of scales; In football, the repeated practice of passing or blocking drills)? The ritual aspect of religion is appropriately adopted in many other instances in our life because of the recognition that, to excel, any skill needs practice and discipline ("He goes to the gym religiously"; "He studies film religiously" ). In one sense, the ritualism of church is merely "practice" for the rest of our lives.

As to the "code of conduct", underlying the Christian "set of beliefs" is the belief that God is infinite and beyond our comprehension (Moses asks his name b/c his people need a way to "define" God. Rather than call himself by name, God instructs Moses to tell them that God is "the great I am" – a present tense version of the verb "to be"). Any attempt to define the infinite (a contradiction on its face) through logical means is doomed to failure. Thus, I would suggest to you that any religion (particularly any so-called Christian religion) which insists that it has the simple, logical and complete explanation of God, his/hers/its role in and among the universe, and how we should behave based on that explanation is not a religion worthy of your attention.

Rather, in describing (not defining) the infinite being, the Christian religion both in its defining document (the Bible) and its practice (generally the celebration of mass and other sacraments) uses symbolism and poetry to describe with words that which cannot be defined by words. For example, in attempting to describe the infinite, Christianity has at its core "holy mysteries" (i.e. God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are separate and unique spiritual identities yet they are one being). Thus, the "inconsistencies" that many see in the Christian church's teachings, I see as the efforts of finite beings attempting to describe the infinite. Taken out of context, obviously, the poetry and symbolism of the Christian religion can seem contradictory, but seen as part the whole combination of belief, ritual and conduct there is an underlying consistency.

You said earlier that "religion should be simple and elegant". I suggest to you that Christianity, as it has developed through the ages, is just that. On its surface, Christianity is simple and can be summed up in some very basic truths: God exists, he loves us, he created us, he died for us, he demands nothing of us, he created a means for us to know and love him, and promises that he will share his infinite peace with us if we love him in return. The elegance is that each of these "true" statements is loaded with questions and outright contradiction (how can God die?) that can only be placed in context and/or resolved through study and discipline. Again, if you expect the wisdom of several millennia to be summed up in a simple sentence that contains no contradictions and takes no deep thought to understand, then I suggest that you have either mighty low expectations of the infinite and ageless universe or a pretty high estimation of your own capacity for comprehension.

Finally, as to religions other than Christianity: Given my recognition of the place and purpose of the "inconsistencies" in Christianity, I am hesitant to condemn other religions, particularly established religions, for any apparent "contradictions". Just as in Christianity, these inconsistencies, when studied and understood, may simply be the tools created by finite beings in their ageless attempt to comprehend the infinite.

I believe that any attempt to define and comprehend the infinite universe in simple, logical, non-contradictory terms will always, at a minimum, fall short. On the other hand, through the use of symbolism, paradox and poetry, religions can provide a basis for understanding the inevitable conflicts and underlying truths presented by a vast, timeless and unknowable universe.

Or, as simply and elegantly as I can put it: In religion, you see contradiction, I see inspiration.
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Old 05-08-2007, 11:28 AM   #33
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Re: Jesus Camp:

This is something I submitted years ago in response to an editorial in the Baltimore Sun. In essence the writer questioned why any rational and intelligent individual could believe in God:

Re: How Can Anyone Believe in God? by Prof. Christopher Sartwell
Baltimore Sun Editorial Page, January 3, 2002

Dear Sirs:

In asking "How can anyone believe in God?", Prof. Sartwell appropriately challenges all who believe in a divine being to search themselves and their beliefs. In anticipation of the Prof. Sartwell's of the world, St. Paul taught that Christians must be prepared to state the basis for their belief. If we fail in this charge, our spirituality will become a matter of mere rote repetition without depth or meaning.

In answering Prof. Sartwell's question, I speak only for myself. Further, I will not attempt to convince Prof. Sartwell, or anyone else, that they too should believe in the God I worship. Instead, and in attempt to reduce my understanding of thousands of years of human wisdom into a three page letter, I will simply try to explain the basis behind my personal "leap into the abyss" of belief.

Essentially, based on my study of humanity's attempts to describe the universe in which it lives, I believe God exists. Further, by attempting to understand and know God, I believe individuals can both find inner peace and effect real change to the evil that exists in this world.

Based on my own analysis and contrary to Prof. Sartwell, the world appears to me be created by an "all powerful and perfectly good being". Does evil exist within the world? Yes. Are their inequities? Yes. Is their cruelty and baseness? Yes. Do bad things happen to good people and vice versa? Yes. Do the occurrence of these things negate the existence of God? No. At least, they do not negate the existence of the "all powerful and perfectly good being" in whom I believe.

Rather than attempt to define an infinite being by inadequately or incompletely stating what my God is, it is easier for me to state what my God is not. My God is not an owner of human pets. My God has given humanity the option to ignore, disobey and, ultimately, disbelieve in the ultimate being. In doing so, my God demonstrates love for us by treating us as equals rather than pets, slaves, or two -year olds.

Central to my belief in this God is my understanding of the nature of the universe. I believe that, despite the existence of evil, the universe has a rhythm, poetry, and beauty to it. Further, the rhythm, poetry, and beauty have an underlying ultimate and infinite Truth to them. I believe this Truth exists, but I could not fully describe it in an essay a thousand pages or book of a thousand poems. The creator and sustainer of this Truth is my God.

As evidence of the universe's beauty, humanity has seen and recorded some of the Truth as it is applicable to us. The Judaic commandments that we do not commit murder, do not steal and do not commit adultery are revelations into this Truth. Both Confucius and Jesus said that we must do unto others as we would have them do unto us. Jesus further asserted that to know this Truth we must "love our neighbors as ourselves". Following these commandments allows a person to truly find a "peace which the world cannot give."

"Ahhhh, but we are 'commanded' to do this," says the cynic, "I thought we weren't pets!" Sigh. Fine, go kill someone, steal from your neighbor, sleep around on your wife, and top it off with a little hatred. You probably will not be struck by lightning or swallowed up by the earth. Instead, you will probably end up in jail, divorced, and just a bit embittered.

The "commandments" given are for those who seek the inner peace which the Truth brings: if you want such a peace, here's what you must do (or not do). God, however, does not "punish" us for failing to keep these commandments. Instead, we punish ourselves, individually and corporately, by separating ourselves from the Truth of creation. This is not just some esoteric prattle. Rather, it is a statement of cause and effect. Diving into a lake of molten lava is sure to incinerate your physical body. Similarly, murdering and hating will have unpleasant consequences for yourself and others.

"Big deal," says the cynic, "I accept that humanity has recognized the need for ethical treatment. That does not prove the existence of God." This brings me to the leap which Prof. Sartwell is incapable of understanding. For me, rather than a bizarre "leap into the abyss", it is a leap of faith based, in part, on a review of entirety of the ten commandments and Jesus' "summary of the law and the prophets".

In accepting the wisdom of Moses and Jesus as to their ethical "commands", I also accept their assertion that a God exists. In reviewing the ten commandments, the first four relate to the existence of a being greater than humanity. The essence of these first four commandments are: God exists, do not place finite objects and desires above God, respect the existence God, and set aside time to learn about and meditate on God. Additionally, Jesus' commandment that we love one another is his second "great commandment". His first "great commandment" is that we love God.

Further, as a truism, I accept that paradoxical conflicts will arise when finite beings attempt to describe an infinite being. Throughout history and through literature, poetry, sculpture, philosophy and other forms of art, humanity has tried to describe the infinite being through finite means. In so doing, humanity's description of the infinite being often contains paradoxes: two descriptions of the infinite being, both asserted as true and both incompatible to our finite understanding. Thus, I make my leap with the knowledge that the infinite cannot be described by the finite.

For the reasons I have stated, I believe the creator of the universal Truth exists and this is my God. I will seek to better know this God and attempt to practice this God's Truth because I believe it is the "right" thing to do. In attempting to do so, I may be able to feel the rhythm of the infinite and, in so doing, allow others to experience the same.

Finally and just as others who have tried before me have done, I will undoubtedly fail in my attempts to practice God's Truth. As others have, I will undoubtedly misinterpret and misapply the God's Truth. These failures to understand, express and live in accordance with the Truth, however, do not negate its existence or its inspiration.

Undoubtedly, my response will seem inadequate to many. It is simply impossible for me to summarize thousands of years of Judaic and Christian debate in this letter; the wisdom of the ages is not easily captured. For that reason, we must constantly strive to understand it. I will gladly discuss the basis of my beliefs more fully with Prof. Sartwell over lunch sometime.
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Old 05-08-2007, 11:49 AM   #34
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Re: Jesus Camp:

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Originally Posted by Beemnseven View Post
SBF, what would you say about all of the bible verses and other gospels that were omitted by Constantine and the Council of Nicaea? You understand that there was a bit of 'picking and choosing' with God's Word by human beings, right?
In attempting to accomplish a complex task, have you ever worked with a group of people that, although each sincerely wanted a good outcome, bickered constantly, fought over how best to accomplish the task, was forced to make concessions and compromises on how best to accomplish the task and then, when all was said and done, looked at the final product and said "Wow- that's amazing". I have.

Inspiration can come individually or corparately, easily or through contentious creation, and it is the product of the inspiration rather than its process that should be judged. (The U.S. Constitution leaps to mind as an "inspired document" contentiously created through the debate and compromise of many gifted individuals).

The fact that Christians reached the ultimate expression of their collective wisdom through debate, contention and concession rather than by accepting some volume magically handed down by an anthropormic ghost, to me, makes it more relevant than not.

Many point to the very human way in which Christianity developed through the ages as the basis for disbelieving its tenets. I suggest to you that it is the very humanity of Christianity that makes it an appropriate vehicle for those who seek God.
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Old 05-08-2007, 12:17 PM   #35
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Re: Jesus Camp:

I didn't know Joe had it in him.
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Old 05-08-2007, 12:30 PM   #36
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Re: Jesus Camp:

Woah, I really didn't mean to start this. All I wanted to say here is that while religion can be a profound and inspiring presence in someones life, it can also be taken to the point where it's scary, which can be seen in this movie. It makes you open your eyes and see how the "American Taliban" as someone I know coined it is being equipped for war and it's scary.

My main qualm with religion is the missionary part of it. I hate walking down the street having some fanatic tell me I'm going to burn in hell if I don't repent now. I go out of my way to make said peoples lives miserable. Even when people I know or aren't being fervent about attacking me, I get quite upset if they keep on once I say I'm not interested.

I have been to many types of churches, some for an amazing religion class I took, some through friends, some through curiosity. When I went to the Buddhist temple in Catlett (who'd a thunk a Buddhist temple in Catlett) I was shocked at how kind and accepting everyone was. I came in extremely ignorant of any of the tradition or anything of the sort. Their teachings are simple and easy to follow, the people were the kindest and most generous I'd ever met. I showed up during a festival where offerings were to be given, and people around me gladly gave me offerings to give to the monks so as to feel at home. This group is extremely open to people coming to see how they go, and I recommend going. The temple is gorgeous and very tranquil regardless of your religion. A huge pond with what seems like classic Chinesse architecture (to my untrained eye).

The other sect I've found that I really enjoyed. They don't really have a special denomination, but all black churches. Just so you know, I'm so white if I fell into a vat of milk no one would be able to rescue me. I'd blend in. However, I've noticed these communities can be extremely religious without being judgmental.

I guess what I'm trying to say here, is religion can be good and bad. In this country many rednecks label all Muslims war mongering terrorists. Which makes me sick, most Muslims are very calm, religious, and moral people. However a small sect of the Muslim community interpret the Koran a different way, just as I feel radical Christians do with the Bible. I suggest, even if you've been Christian all your life to explore the religious world. I'm not saying this to buckle your faith, I'm doing it because I think it's important for us to understand other religions a bit.

And for the record, I'm done with this thread. I didn't want it to turn into a theological debate. The fact is you can only state your position and you won't change anyone else's. I find religion extremely interesting, but also find it hard for me to question certain parts of say, Christianity, without the Christian I'm questioning to get upset if they can't explain it. I'm a curious person by nature and I'm curious as to how you can completely devote yourself to something you've never seen, felt, or have anything except for an ancient book that's not even 1st or 2nd hand stories.
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Old 05-08-2007, 12:42 PM   #37
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Re: Jesus Camp:

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I am not going to get into detail on this, but I am one of the Religous fanatics spoken of here. In the defense of God, I am not worthy to bear his grace; but he is worthy of my praise. My actions are not always pleasing to Him, but you cannot fault him for mine and other believers shortcommings.
Um yes you can when they kill innocent people in the name of God. Crusades, jihad, whatever you wanna call it, it is bullshit.

Although I respect those who apply the morals and virtues of religion I absolutely hate those who are blinded by it, and those who would KILL in the name of God because their religious leader tells them to.

Otherwise I have no problem with religion and God, and I would consider myself somewhat religious, atleast accepting the virtues of my religion, because that helps humanity and the world. But you start pushing it, when you actually believe the Bible to be literally true, or just dismiss the idea of evolution like those parents do in this movie. They teach there kids the wrong stuff purposly. I dont care what your views are, watch this movie!

They have freaking 8 year old kids crying because they think they are sinning for listening to Britney Spears once! Seriously wtf is that. Do you all think a child at the age of 8 has the capacity to even understand what a sin is? This is called brainwashing. Sure teach a child about religion, that is a responsibility as a parent, but isnt it your responsibility to teach your child to be critical and challenge others around him/her? Why not teach evolution, or the claim that there is no God, and from that your child might develop his or her own unique view.

When I have kids I will pass down religion and values, but I will also show them the other side, because that only makes them stronger. You cant sheild and baby kids forever, and I do not want a brainwashed kid. That is the worst, because that kinda mind will take you nowhere in this world.
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Old 05-08-2007, 12:48 PM   #38
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Re: Jesus Camp:

And for the record, I watched this movie with several very religious Christians, and they were disgusted by it. They thought it was sad because the parents abused the religion and pretty much destroyed these kids minds.

This thread shouldnt be about if there is a God or not. The whole pt. of this is an illustration of how religion is abused.
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Old 05-08-2007, 12:53 PM   #39
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Re: Jesus Camp:

I can appreciate people who strongly believe in their given religions, but I must admit that I too find it annoying when someone tells me that I am going to burn in hell because I am a sinner unless I "bow down" to God. I feel like kicking those people's asses and saying "Okay, if you're going to heavan and I am going to hell, I'm going to kick the crap out of you so at least going to hell will have been worth it."

As I said earlier, I have no problem with religious people and think it can be a very positive influence on many individuals and on society as a whole. I think, however, that the 1% of nutjobs who would have been crazy even without religion give it a bad name.
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Old 05-08-2007, 01:03 PM   #40
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Re: Jesus Camp:

You know what was a good movie? "Saved"
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Old 05-08-2007, 01:25 PM   #41
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Re: Jesus Camp:

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I feel like kicking those people's asses and saying "Okay, if you're going to heavan and I am going to hell, I'm going to kick the crap out of you so at least going to hell will have been worth it."
My general response to these types - if you're going to heaven, it's probably not a place I want to be.
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Old 05-08-2007, 01:34 PM   #42
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Re: Jesus Camp:

And, as for my earlier exigesis on religion and the foundation of my beliefs, I was really trying to point out that it is not "religion" per se that is evil. Also, those religions claiming to have "simple" answers to ageless questions are likely to be less than they purport to be.
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Old 05-08-2007, 01:43 PM   #43
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Re: Jesus Camp:

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Um yes you can when they kill innocent people in the name of God. Crusades, jihad, whatever you wanna call it, it is bullshit.

Although I respect those who apply the morals and virtues of religion I absolutely hate those who are blinded by it, and those who would KILL in the name of God because their religious leader tells them to.
Well that was kinda Angry's point. It is the fault of individuals and groups who pervert the message of God's love into a message of hate, not the original message of love. Just because some have perverted the message or used the power of religion to justify or accomplish their own selfish ends, that does not change the underlying truth of the original message.

I have not seen the movie that started this thread. Maybe I will, maybe I won't. It is clear that it is a depiction of a group that has truly perverted Christ's message of love. That, however, is a story as old as christianity itself.
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Old 05-08-2007, 01:51 PM   #44
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Re: Jesus Camp:

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And what brush might that be? I am wasn't talking about the people who practice religion, rather the whole notion of religion. There isn't a single religion without contradictions and that something I can't get past, especially since god is suppose to be omnipotent and divine. I can't prove or disprove the existence of god, but I can say religion is manure flavored ice-cream on pretty cone. It is highly illogical, contradictory, and breads fear. It is evil as it divides.
In this case, the brush you appear to be using when you lump all religion and the practice of it together as being "evil", etc. To suggest Dr. Martin Luther King, and Jim Jones and what they believe are basically the same is quite a reach in ridicularity.
Hmmm....that would be the brush
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Old 05-08-2007, 03:12 PM   #45
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Re: Jesus Camp:

As I said, I personally am not very religious, but it is kind of hard not to believe in Jesus' teachings (or Allah's, Buddha's, etc.). Basically, treat others as you would want others to treat you, do not judge others because it is not your place (i.e., "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone"), and know that living such a life will reap rewards.

Even if there is no such thing as heaven, good people generally lead FAR happier lives than bad ones. There are a lot of "bad" people with money and power, but if you are such an ass, how many people are you going to have in your life who love you (as opposed to try to suck your blood)? I find that many a-holes lead very unhappy lives because they know what a-holes they are and so do others.
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