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Michael Moore's Latest Target: Your HMO

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Old 07-09-2007, 11:36 PM   #166
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Re: Michael Moore's Latest Target: Your HMO

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Originally Posted by Mattyk72 View Post
I actually think it's sad that you don't seem to have much pity for those that are less fortunate, and you assume that people that are homeless are homeless because of personal choice, they're dumbasses, and don't give a shit.

Sad.
Well, everyone knows that the folks in New Orleans should've jumped in their SUV's and driven to their summer homes (as suggested by Barbara Bush).
Poor people ALL deserve what they get, right JSarno and SBF? Mother Teresa, Ghandi, Jesus...PUSHOVERS! HA!
BLEEDING HEARTS...HA!
"SCREW THE POOR!! THEY DESERVE THEIR MISFORTUNE!"
Now..pass me that Beluga, James.
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Old 07-09-2007, 11:37 PM   #167
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Re: Michael Moore's Latest Target: Your HMO

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Well, everyone knows that the folks in New Orleans should've jumped in their SUV's and driven to their summer homes (as suggested by Barbara Bush).
Poor people ALL deserve what they get, right JSarno and SBF? Mother Teresa, Ghandi, Jesus...PUSHOVERS! HA!
BLEEDING HEARTS...HA!
"SCREW THE POOR!! THEY DESERVE THEIR MISFORTUNE!"
Now..pass me that Beluga, James.
LOL

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Old 07-10-2007, 12:04 AM   #168
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Re: Michael Moore's Latest Target: Your HMO

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So while someone "deserves" a summer home and 2-3 luxury cars, that means on the flipside somebody else "deserves" to be homeless and without health care?

Personally I don't think things need to be so lopsided. I would think one home and one luxury car would be enough. If these people need such excessive luxuries, what is their true motivation for even being a doctor??
Not sure what the exact numbers are, but according to a few med students I know, there's a big misconception that all doctors are living it up. Neurosurgeons, spinal surgeons, anesthesiologists and a few other specific doctors are compensated well. Most other doctors aren't getting paid their true worth.

Take into account the debt that every doctor incurs- they've got 200K in extra four years of school. After that, they're probably raking in about 35-40K in residencies (where they're staying up every third or fourth night). Being a doctor certainly calls for sacrifice and they should be rewarded way more than many other professions.

Average salaries

I know a doctor who practiced general surgery for 200K a year... told me with all the stress, work hours, etc- it wasn't nearly enough to compensate what they go through. Add malpractice insurance costs, it's no wonder doctors skip to the private sector as soon as possible.

I think there would be a significant drop-off in talent, should the private sector be taken away. Eliminating private hospitals doesn't solve the inefficiency of the general ones. I haven't seen Moore's film yet, but the UK's system isn't perfect. In fact, when I visited London pubs, health care problems were always a topic of conversation. In terms of Cuba, their system is simplified: health care is directed for a healthy work force. There's little to no care for the elderly, extreme illness, mental retardation, etc. Are American families ready to "let go" of their loved ones earlier? Even if we're covered, are we ready to wait an extra six months for a hip replacement? Are we ready to scrap the notion of mental health care? ADD/ADHD are myths in Cuba.

This country has the best medical education institutions, the best doctors and the highest technology (including medical and diagnostic equipment). Why else do so many wealthy people in universal systems rush here for care? (the wait is too long elsewhere). The problem isn't the care itself... it's access. And even then, illegal immigrants receive emergency treatment here. Every person (regardless of class status) can get treated... the discrepancy lies with how long it takes for a poor person to receive treatment or the degree a non-insured is monetarily wiped out after an emergency.

Oh yeah... and I do plan on watching "Sicko" ASAP. Moore's techniques grate my skull, but I think I'm intelligent enough to use his film as part of a larger critique on the system. He's at least done a great service sparking debate. Honestly, there's probably very few people (in both parties) that are probably so misanthropic that they'd really want the poor to die off without proper health care. In a utopian society, I'd want everyone to get treated for unprepared illness and disease without having to live the rest of their lives in debt. We've just got to remember that nothing is ever free... the other countries (EU nations, Canada, etc) don't face the same elements the US has (sheer size, immigration), so they can probably afford to have universal plans that work. It's great to say that the US just needs to scrap the current system, but the pragmatists still have to make it work.
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Old 07-10-2007, 12:07 AM   #169
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Re: Michael Moore's Latest Target: Your HMO

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and how the hell do you know what his intentions are? just because someone makes money when doing something, doesnt mean they arent trying to do the right thing
I agree. Now you and all your Bush bashing friends can apply this same rule(in spirit) to him.
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Old 07-10-2007, 12:15 AM   #170
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Re: Michael Moore's Latest Target: Your HMO

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Originally Posted by Mattyk72 View Post
I actually think it's sad that you don't seem to have much pity for those that are less fortunate, and you assume that people that are homeless are homeless because of personal choice, they're dumbasses, and don't give a shit.

Sad.
Well, I just feel that everything in your life, you attracted somehow. Whether be from laziness, or no sense of urgency, or lack of self responsibility, which would describe 99% of all people on assistance.
I would be more than happy to help someone that had a completely random crappy issue happen to them. I would and have helped people that help themselves. I refuse to help people that have a hand out and are unwilling to help themselves and live like there are no repercussions.
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Old 07-10-2007, 12:17 AM   #171
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Re: Michael Moore's Latest Target: Your HMO

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So let me get this straight: Some of you are saying that the American Health Care system is working well and doesn't need to be changed and some of you are saying that is blows.
Moore doesn't attack any political party in this film..by the way...he disects the "system" and concludes that it is not working for the MAJORITY of the country.
I guess it just depends on who you talk to, doesn't it?
Some of you on here are getting mighty "defensive", though.. Hmmm.

I think we all know that the health care system has flaws, but to put the government in charge is lunacy.
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Old 07-10-2007, 12:29 AM   #172
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Re: Michael Moore's Latest Target: Your HMO

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Well, everyone knows that the folks in New Orleans should've jumped in their SUV's and driven to their summer homes (as suggested by Barbara Bush).
Poor people ALL deserve what they get, right JSarno and SBF? Mother Teresa, Ghandi, Jesus...PUSHOVERS! HA!
BLEEDING HEARTS...HA!
"SCREW THE POOR!! THEY DESERVE THEIR MISFORTUNE!"
Now..pass me that Beluga, James.
See, you guys all let life come to you don't you? To say something like this is crazy. There are poor people that try, but the majority will get ahead eventually. You just don't want to come to the conclusion that you or certain people CHOSE their lifestyle. Don't tell me people can't change their lives for the better...they can! They just don't cause of the bleeding hearst here always willing to give a hand out.
So here's a suggestion...instead of bitching about some of us that actually care to keep our hard earned money, why don't you all get together and donate to all the lazy people...oops, I mean less fortunate.

PS- Mother teresa, ghandi and Jesus never preyed on the hard workers to live.

pps- YES, those idiot in New Orleans KNEW the Hurricane was coming...had SEVERAL DAYS of warning but they CHOSE to stay. Are you getting the common point here? They CHOSE to stay...CHOSE it. They had every opportunity to leave, but CHOSE to stay. Because you were sarcastic about their "summer homes" etc...they were all offered shelter and food at the dome as well as other places.
You know...if you're in a flood and a guy with a boat comes by to help you and you say no...then a helicopter comes to help you and you don't get on it...you deserve to drown. (that's hypothetical by the way) Don't ignore the people willing to help...they did.
When I was in Hurricane Charlie, I took my life into my own hands...I also helped others by allowing them into my buddy's apartment cause they would likely be flooded. During a time like that, the human spirit comes out and will help out...those people had ample time...even people that came around with buses to help and they turned their noses at them. Stupidity.
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Old 07-10-2007, 12:42 AM   #173
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Re: Michael Moore's Latest Target: Your HMO

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See, you guys all let life come to you don't you? To say something like this is crazy. There are poor people that try, but the majority will get ahead eventually. You just don't want to come to the conclusion that you or certain people CHOSE their lifestyle. Don't tell me people can't change their lives for the better...they can! They just don't cause of the bleeding hearst here always willing to give a hand out.
So here's a suggestion...instead of bitching about some of us that actually care to keep our hard earned money, why don't you all get together and donate to all the lazy people...oops, I mean less fortunate.

PS- Mother teresa, ghandi and Jesus never preyed on the hard workers to live.

pps- YES, those idiot in New Orleans KNEW the Hurricane was coming...had SEVERAL DAYS of warning but they CHOSE to stay. Are you getting the common point here? They CHOSE to stay...CHOSE it. They had every opportunity to leave, but CHOSE to stay. Because you were sarcastic about their "summer homes" etc...they were all offered shelter and food at the dome as well as other places. You know...if you're in a flood and a guy with a boat comes by to help you and you say no...then a helicopter comes to help you and you don't get on it...you deserve to drown. (that's hypothetical by the way) Don't ignore the people willing to help...they did.
When I was in Hurricane Charlie, I took my life into my own hands...I also helped others by allowing them into my buddy's apartment cause they would likely be flooded. During a time like that, the human spirit comes out and will help out...those people had ample time...even people that came around with buses to help and they turned their noses at them. Stupidity.

This is truly idiotic. Bush didn't even know how bad it was until two days after it happened, and he's the president. The ignorance of this argument I think really demonstrates the narrowness of your thinking on this issue. I am truly truly stunned by your lack of compassion here Jsarno, and I think even the most staunch economic conservative would likely be shook by what you are suggesting.
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Old 07-10-2007, 12:55 AM   #174
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Re: Michael Moore's Latest Target: Your HMO

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This is truly idiotic. Bush didn't even know how bad it was until two days after it happened, and he's the president. The ignorance of this argument I think really demonstrates the narrowness of your thinking on this issue. I am truly truly stunned by your lack of compassion here Jsarno, and I think even the most staunch economic conservative would likely be shook by what you are suggesting.
Umm, they live 10+ feet BELOW SEA LEVEL! People all over the country were warning about this disaster years before it happened, they had 4 full days to evacuate, at worse, 2 full days. How much compassion should someone have when they aren't willing to get out of the way? Do you stand in the middle of the highway and then blame the vehicle that runs you over? Come on man...it's common sense.

I just really don't understand people that are so willing to defend idiots. (I understand that old bed ridden people perished and I do feel for that, they couldn't do anything about it) Other than that, if you have 2 feet would you not try to get out of the way of DEATH?
The fact that you are arguing that people should take their lives into their own hands by showing down a freakin hurricane is amazing. They knew the risk, they CHOSE to stay and face death.
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Old 07-10-2007, 01:34 AM   #175
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Re: Michael Moore's Latest Target: Your HMO

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Umm, they live 10+ feet BELOW SEA LEVEL! People all over the country were warning about this disaster years before it happened, they had 4 full days to evacuate, at worse, 2 full days. How much compassion should someone have when they aren't willing to get out of the way? Do you stand in the middle of the highway and then blame the vehicle that runs you over? Come on man...it's common sense.

I just really don't understand people that are so willing to defend idiots. (I understand that old bed ridden people perished and I do feel for that, they couldn't do anything about it) Other than that, if you have 2 feet would you not try to get out of the way of DEATH?
The fact that you are arguing that people should take their lives into their own hands by showing down a freakin hurricane is amazing. They knew the risk, they CHOSE to stay and face death.

See, you don't understand that mobility is a privilege that comes with wealth. You don't understand that dirt poor people in New Orleans can't just up and move to Denver, or somewhere suitably above sea level. You don't understand that they can't relocate at the drop of a hat when it looks like a storm is coming. You deny the existence of the dirt poor man with no education who worked hard everyday of his life to carve his own tiny little piece of the pie, and lost it on that day. And what's most revolting to me is you feel no compassion and - incredibly - blame the victims. You know, you can feel bad about a tragedy without having to become a socialist.

How about Sudanese people? I mean, they know they are living in a war zone right? Why not move (like so many wealthy Iraqis already have). Where do you draw the line?

Anyway, something has to give with our health care system. The center can't hold, with all the baby boomers retiring in the numbers they are. Moore's film is important in that it brings up stuff we are going to have deal with sooner than later anyway.
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Old 07-10-2007, 01:45 AM   #176
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Re: Michael Moore's Latest Target: Your HMO

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See, you don't understand that mobility is a privilege that comes with wealth. You don't understand that dirt poor people in New Orleans can't just up and move to Denver, or somewhere suitably above sea level. You don't understand that they can't relocate at the drop of a hat when it looks like a storm is coming. You deny the existence of the dirt poor man with no education who worked hard everyday of his life to carve his own tiny little piece of the pie, and lost it on that day. And what's most revolting to me is you feel no compassion and - incredibly - blame the victims. You know, you can feel bad about a tragedy without having to become a socialist.
OK, you obviously won't see it the way I do...to each his own. They had buses that came to get them, they CHOSE not to get on. Who's fault is that?
What you're saying is a cop out. If you're life is in danger, you should do all possible to save it, which include forethought. No one is saying move to Denver, the fact that you say that just shows you're not paying attention. I didn't say relocate, I said get on the damn bus that is trying to save you, and or go to the shelters that are feeding you and giving you shelter. Again, common sense...but I guess you don't beleive in common sense.

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How about Sudanese people? I mean, they know they are living in a war zone right? Why not move (like so many wealthy Iraqis already have). Where do you draw the line?
Are they Americans? No...so why would I profess they do anything? I am not talking about people across the planet. People in other countries are not privelaged like we are.

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Anyway, something has to give with our health care system. The center can't hold, with all the baby boomers retiring in the numbers they are. Moore's film is important in that it brings up stuff we are going to have deal with sooner than later anyway.
Yeah, he's quite the humanitarian.
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Old 07-10-2007, 01:56 AM   #177
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Re: Michael Moore's Latest Target: Your HMO

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... but I guess you don't beleive in common sense.
Maybe not but I do beleive in spell check.

Good night my friend. May you never find your life imperiled by a natural disaster.
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Old 07-10-2007, 02:14 AM   #178
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Re: Michael Moore's Latest Target: Your HMO

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Umm, they live 10+ feet BELOW SEA LEVEL! People all over the country were warning about this disaster years before it happened, they had 4 full days to evacuate, at worse, 2 full days. How much compassion should someone have when they aren't willing to get out of the way? Do you stand in the middle of the highway and then blame the vehicle that runs you over? Come on man...it's common sense.

I just really don't understand people that are so willing to defend idiots. (I understand that old bed ridden people perished and I do feel for that, they couldn't do anything about it) Other than that, if you have 2 feet would you not try to get out of the way of DEATH?
The fact that you are arguing that people should take their lives into their own hands by showing down a freakin hurricane is amazing. They knew the risk, they CHOSE to stay and face death.
Where do you suggest they go? OZ? Neverland? Oh, wait, I know...Middle Earth!
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Old 07-10-2007, 02:27 AM   #179
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Re: Michael Moore's Latest Target: Your HMO

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Maybe not but I do beleive in spell check.

Good night my friend. May you never find your life imperiled by a natural disaster.

Don't worry, I'll actually use my head and get out of the way if given a week to do so.
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Old 07-10-2007, 02:28 AM   #180
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Re: Michael Moore's Latest Target: Your HMO

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Where do you suggest they go? OZ? Neverland? Oh, wait, I know...Middle Earth!
Had you been paying attention (I know...not a virtue that dems possess) then you'd see that they had a chance for a bus to take them away, and numerous shelters. But I guess some were too good for that, now they are gone.
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